When did the US start teaching "boom and zoom" (1 Viewer)

[nincomp]

I came across a fairly simplistic video today comparing the KI-43 and the P40. I recall reading that this technique was taught to the AVG (Flying Tigers) pilots early in the war by Chennault. The books I read as a child implied that this had not been taught to the pilots previously. When did "zoom and boom" techniques become part of normal training by the different US services.
Thanks

ps, I apologize if this had been discussed to death. I have been away from this forum for a decade or so.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I would imagine that Pursuit squadrons in France flying SPADs probably used them first.

 

[pbehn]

I would imagine that Pursuit squadrons in France flying SPADs probably used them first.

Maybe not, bi planes were low on power, high on drag and light, they had little energy to conserve.

 

[SaparotRob]

I can't see Nieuports screaming down, then rapidly pulling up without a few shedding their wings.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Maybe not, bi planes were low on power, high on drag and light, they had little energy to conserve.

No really true - you can do energy maneuvers in just about any aircraft provided you don't exceed structural maneuvering speed. I believe Richthofen even used energy maneuvers when he stalked his victims, usually diving on an unsuspected foe and using speed to close in.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Maybe not, bi planes were low on power, high on drag and light, they had little energy to conserve.

All planes suffered those same defects in that era -- but the SPAD was known as very robust, very fast, with good dive-speed and relatively high climb-rates against most opponents (except the DR-1, which still suffered from much lower speed.)

The SE-5 and -5A also shared broadly similar characteristics and may have used BnZ at times.

I'm not making a definitive claim here, but diving to a point rear and underneath a target and then shooting during one's climb-out was a thing. Albert Ball did something similar, though he often used the upper-wing Lewis in a schrage-musik style from this initial attack profile. This was to avoid return fire from two-seaters.

Boom and zoom doesn't rely on pure speed and climb, but relative speed and climb differences in the combatant aircraft.

 

[nincomp]

Since it appears that energy tactics had been around for a while, I guess the question changes to "When was it realized that diving upon the Japanese fighters was essentially required to survive the encounter?" It seems that early in the war, the P40's of the AVG were significantly more successful that average P40 squadrons. Was the difference that the AVG pilots were told to only attack fighters in a diving attack and avoid contact otherwise?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Since it appears that energy tactics had been around for a while, I guess the question changes to "When was it realized that diving upon the Japanese fighters was essentially required to survive the encounter?" It seems that early in the war, the P40's of the AVG were significantly more successful that average P40 squadrons. Was the difference that the AVG pilots were told to only attack fighters in a diving attack and avoid contact otherwise?

Chennault allegedly saw the Soviets using energy maneuvers when they fought the Japanese during the 1930s.

 

[MikeMeech]

Since it appears that energy tactics had been around for a while, I guess the question changes to "When was it realized that diving upon the Japanese fighters was essentially required to survive the encounter?" It seems that early in the war, the P40's of the AVG were significantly more successful that average P40 squadrons. Was the difference that the AVG pilots were told to only attack fighters in a diving attack and avoid contact otherwise?

Hi
To give a picture of the tactics of WW1 here is a summary of the development of aerial fighting from a RFC memorandum of December 1917 (from OH 'War in the Air' Vol. 4):

Also the February 1918 edition of 'Fighting in the Air' memo (from WitA Vol. 6 Appendices Volume) issued by BEF GHQ, has the following on single-seat fighter action:

Mike

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Since it appears that energy tactics had been around for a while, I guess the question changes to "When was it realized that diving upon the Japanese fighters was essentially required to survive the encounter?" It seems that early in the war, the P40's of the AVG were significantly more successful that average P40 squadrons. Was the difference that the AVG pilots were told to only attack fighters in a diving attack and avoid contact otherwise?

According to Boyington in his autobiography, as well as a couple of other sources, yes -- Chennault trained the AVG to attack from above, and either use zoom to climb back out, or superior dive-speed to achieve separation before re-engaging or leaving (depending on circumstances), prior to AVG's first commitment to battle in Dec 1941.

I'm not sure how much more successful AVG was than other P-40 operators, though. RNZAF was still using them in 1944 to at least parity. They were also used by USAAF in the Med until 1944, again with solid if not spectacular results, so far as I've read.

I think part of the -40's bad rap comes from early attempts to dogfight the Zero, and part of it comes from it being outclassed by the 109F in North Africa -- but it was still a dangerous opponent against both types in the hands of a good pilot.

 

[GrauGeist]

Diving attacks were used during WWI.

In Boelcke's Dicta (a recommended book, by the way), Rule #6 was:
"If an opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it."

Energy attacks were quite useful, especially if you were in an aircraft that was less than equal to your adversary. The "boom and zoom" gave you a bit of leverage over the enemy.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Diving attacks were used during WWI.

In Boelcke's Dicta (a recommended book, by the way), Rule #6 was:
"If an opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it."

Energy attacks were quite useful, especially if you were in an aircraft that was less than equal to your adversary. The "boom and zoom" gave you a bit of leverage over the enemy.

His first rule alludes to altitude without mentioning it, when he advises to secure advantages before entering combat. Especially in that era, altitude was the advantage. In that first rule he mentions approaching up-sun -- but that too implies altitude in one's favor.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

IIRC "boom and zoom" was also referred as "scooping"

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

IIRC "boom and zoom" was also referred as "scooping"

I've only ever done it playing sims, but when I do it right I think of it as "murdering". When I get it right, I'm on my way out even as the bullets are striking. The ideal is not to have a fight. The ideal is to have an assassination.

Now if only I could do it more often! I get dragged into a furball far too much for my own good.

 

[GrauGeist]

His first rule alludes to altitude without mentioning it, when he advises to secure advantages before entering combat. Especially in that era, altitude was the advantage. In that first rule he mentions approaching up-sun -- but that too implies altitude in one's favor.

Boelcke was himself, an accomplished pilot and trained quite a few that became legends in their own right, Richtofen being ine example.

If I'm not mistaken, his Dicta is still used in fighter pilot basic training courses.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I've only ever done it playing sims, but when I do it right I think of it as "murdering". When I get it right, I'm on my way out even as the bullets are striking. The ideal is not to have a fight. The ideal is to have an assassination.

Now if only I could do it more often! I get dragged into a furball far too much for my own good.

"The great thing in air fighting is that the decisive factor does not lie in trick flying but solely in the personal ability and energy of the aviator. A flying man may be able to loop and do all the stunts imaginable and yet he may not succeed in shooting down a single enemy."

Manfred von Richthofen, The Red Fighter Pilot

 

[33k in the air]

Or, as Chuck Yeager said, "It's the man, not the machine."

 

[Peter Gunn]

I would imagine that Pursuit squadrons in France flying SPADs probably used them first.

Totally agree, from what I remember, SPAD's were A). Fast and B). Good in a dive and stoutly built.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Boelcke was himself, an accomplished pilot and trained quite a few that became legends in their own right, Richtofen being ine example.

If I'm not mistaken, his Dicta is still used in fighter pilot basic training courses.

Absolutely. Modern USAF fighter training refers directly to the Dicta.

That's because he boiled down the principles not only very early, but very well. If we read through them again, one theme we see in all his points is the emphasis on aggressiveness, even in defense. He knew WTF he was doing, and had the ability to narrow it down to the essentials. That's exactly why they're still in use today.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Or, as Chuck Yeager said, "It's the man, not the machine."

Machines matter, but not nearly as much as men.