1945 PB4Y-1 Question

[lnewman838]

Looking to find out if the front turrets (Erco?) on these PB4Y-1s are just covered tightly or do these aircraft at Litchfield Park NAF in 1945 have something else mounted in that forward position? They may have had the guns already removed. Thanks.

 

[mjfur]

Goodyear was a modification center. Looks like a fairing used before the turret was installed.

Even with a canvas cover the nose has a different shape.

 

[Capt. Vick]

My 2 cents. Flown straight from the factory to there. Nose turret never attached, replaced with aerodynamic fairing. Top turret is present with guns, but covered with fabric cover after landing. Maybe they are just re-positioning her after the fact.

 

[GrauGeist]

The PB4Y-1 was a navalized B-24, unlike the redesigned PB4Y-2, so the large share of the PB4Y-1s had the early style "greenhouse" nose: no turret.

In the photo, note that not only are the noses covered, but the top turrets as well.

 

[Wurger]

 

[MIflyer]

Most PB4Y-1 had the regular B-24 nose turret, not the ERCO turret. Some PB4Y-2 had the earlier B-24 turret but most had the ERCO turret. The blunt nose was a mod for the aircraft used by USCG as search aircraft.

 

[Wurger]

As it can be seen in mjfur's post , the bottom pic, the Privateer has a kind of the blunt nose cap. In one book for the B-24 I found the same image with the caption that the cap was fitted for a ferry flight just to the Litchfield Park, Arizona for attachment of the nose turret and the bombardier's station.

 

[EwenS]

Most PB4Y-1 had the regular B-24 nose turret, not the ERCO turret. Some PB4Y-2 had the earlier B-24 turret but most had the ERCO turret. The blunt nose was a mod for the aircraft used by USCG as search aircraft.

PB4Y-1 aircraft were initially based on the B-24D airframe complete with the fully glazed nose. Later deliveries were based on B-24J/L/M airframes. The latter were fitted with a variety of nose turrets:

Consolidated A-6A (CAC5800-2 with staggered guns) or A-6B (CAC5800-3 with unstaggered guns). 600rpg.
MPC5800-5 (a improved version of the Consolidated A-6 turret)
Emerson A-15 bow turret (preferred over the Consolidated / MPC above). 600rpg.
ERCO 250SH-3 bow turret with 400rpg

Aircraft were delivered to modification centres where Govt Furnished Eqpt, like turrets, would be installed. Hence the need for the "ferry nose". Steve Ginter's book on the type has a photo of a line up of PB4Y-1 at the Consolidated facility at Lindberg Field with a mix of turret types. The first aircraft had the ERCO turret and the next three the Emerson turret.

I haven't come across any information detailing how many aircraft were fitted with each turret type. Given the variety I don't think it is possible to say that most PB4Y-1 "had the regular B-24 nose turret"

Post war a number of PB4Y-2 used by the USN and the USCG were disarmed losing nose, tail and beam turrets. The beam turrets were replaced by glazed pannelling and a new glazed nose and tail fairing fitted.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10482559

The first 100, of 736, production PB4Y-2 were given the MPC nose turret.

 

[SaparotRob]

View attachment 839016
View attachment 839015

Show off.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Consolidated Field Service Bulletin, nose turret, date is bulletin date.

Date	Model	Serial	Factory	Change
1-Sep-43​	B-24D	42-72965		Installation of Consolidated-3 Turret In Nose, becomes B-24J
15-Sep-43​	B-24J	42-72964		Nose Turret Plexiglas Strengthened
15-Jan-44​	B-24			MCR 531 MOTOR PRODUCTS COMPANY nose turret No. 5800-5 has replaced the Consolidated Vultee 32-F5800-3 turret in the nose position on B-24J airplanes.
1-Feb-44​	B-24J			MCR 531J Block No. 120-CO Nose Turret-Louvers for Air Blast on Ejected Shells.
15-Mar-44​	B-24J	42-109789		Louvers Added to Nose Turret Fairing MCR 531J (1). Two sets are provided on each side of the airplane; one set to scoop in air, the other set to allow the air to escape
1-May-44​	B-24J			MCR 531W(1) B-24J-170-CO Nose Turret - Windshield Wiper installation - Revision of.
1-Jun-44​	B-24J			MCR 531AC B-24J-170-CO Nose Turret - Deflector Plate for Shell Compartment.
15-Jun-44​	B-24J			MCR 531N B-24J-185-CO Nose Turret - Change of North American Version.
15-Aug-44​	B-24J			MCR 531N B-24J-205-CO Installation of Emerson Nose Turret - Revision of Bombardier 's Windshield.
15-Aug-44​	B-24J	44-41249	San Diego	J-4 Gun Heaters Replace J-1 and J-3. The J-1 heater will continue to be used, however, until sufficient quantities of J -4 heaters are available. The mounting receptacles for the J-1 and J-4 gun heaters are identical thereby making them interchangeable. Provisions for the J -3 gun heaters have been removed from the Martin top turret and the ball turret. J-1 heaters can be interchanged with J-4 heaters and are installed in the ball turret, side waist guns, Martin top turret, and Emerson nose turret, with preferences in that order. MCR 575C San Diego
15-Aug-44​	B-24J		Douglas	As above
15-Aug-44​	B-24J	42-51611	Ford	As above
15-Aug-44​	B-24J	44-10752	Fort Worth	As above
15-Aug-44​	B-24J		N.A.A.	As above
15-Sep-44​	B-24J	44-41347	San Diego	THE hydraulic turret (Motor Products Corporation 5800-5) in the nose of B-24 type airplanes has been replaced by a type A -15 Emerson electric turret (Emerson No. 307000) increasing the weight of the airplane 223 pounds. This weight change moves the center of gravity forward .8% of the M.A. MCR 531N San Diego
15-Sep-44​	B-24J	42-78070	N.A.A.	As above except MCR 531N-1 to -13 N.A.A.
15-Sep-44​	B-24G	42-78345	N.A.A.	As above except MCR 531N-16 N.A.A.
15-Sep-44​	B-24J	42-78475	N.A.A.	As above except MCR 531N-14, -17 N.A.A.
15-Sep-44​	B-24J	42-78555	N.A.A.	As above except MCR 531N-15 N.A.A.
15-Sep-44​				Douglas B-24J, Ford B-24M, Fort Worth B-24J unaffected by the above turret change
1-Oct-44​	B-24L			MCR 531Z B-24L-10-CO Emerson Nose Turret. No. 308000 with computing sight replaces No. 307000. Marking on left bulkhead 0.1 aids in lining up sight.
15-Nov-44​	B-24M			MCR 531Z B-24M-5-CO Emerson Nose Turret - Turret No. 308000 with speed computing sight replaces turret No. 307000.
15-Dec-44​	B-24M	44-41880	San Diego	A QUANTITY of Emerson nose turrets (type A-15A) have been installed for the purpose of testing Plexiglas turret enclosures. Installation of the turrets has been limited to 50 airplanes MCR 531Z
15-Dec-44​	B-24L	44-49300	Ford	As above
15-Dec-44​	B-24J	44-44185	Fort Worth	As above
15-Dec-44​	B-24J	44-28195	N.A.A.	As above
15-Apr-45​	B-24M			MCR 531AJ B-24M-30-CO Nose Turret Ammunition Chute Guard - Guards added to nose turret ammunition chutes to prevent damage caused by personnel using the chute as a step when entering the nose turret.
15-May-45​	B-24N-1	44-52052	Ford	MCR 664A-1 Emerson Ball Turret in Nose - Structure.
15-Sep-45​	PB4Y-2	66245​		Degree Markings Added on Forward Top Turret Support Ring to aid Navigator. Drawings 100A2835, 100A2836; MCR 271

The USN received 4 B-24D from Fort Worth in April 1943 and 1 B-24G from North American in March 1944, otherwise its PB4Y came from San Diego.

229 B-24D August 1942 to August 1943
367 B-24J September 1943 to July 1944
186 B-24L July to September 1944
145 B-24M October 1944 to January 1945

PB4Y-2 production began in March 1944, the 100th built in September 1944, all up 740 built including PB4Y-2 Bureau Number 59554 crashed before acceptance, no replacement, not officially counted.

 

[daviemax]

According to U.S. Coast Guard Aircraft, by Arthur Pearcy five (5) PB4Y-1 aircraft were operated by the USCG from 1944 to 1951. Confusingly, the book also states - without clarification - that the USCG received nine of these aircraft. In any case it appears the Navy version of the B-24 was used to some degree by the USCG through some time in 1951.

As is well known, 17 former B-17G aircraft - redesignated PB-1G - were also operated by the USCG; in this case from 1946 up to 1959, depending upon the individual aircraft.

 

[EwenS]

According to U.S. Coast Guard Aircraft, by Arthur Pearcy five (5) PB4Y-1 aircraft were operated by the USCG from 1944 to 1951. Confusingly, the book also states - without clarification - that the USCG received nine of these aircraft. In any case it appears the Navy version of the B-24 was used to some degree by the USCG through some time in 1951.

As is well known, 17 former B-17G aircraft - redesignated PB-1G - were also operated by the USCG; in this case from 1946 up to 1959, depending upon the individual aircraft.

Joe Baugher's site has a one line reference to the USCG using 5 PB4Y-1 between 1944 & 1946, not not what they were used for.

 

[GrauGeist]

The USCG may have recieved nine, but for various reasons, only used five of them, which is not unusual.

 

[EwenS]

There is a colour video of a USCG PB4Y-1 on Guam colour drated 3 July 1945 (see the final part).This was being used to check the LORAN navigation system

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVZbXVRUsk

There was a large network of LORAN stations in the Pacific in 1945 (72?) all needing checked for accuracy. There was a LORAN station established at Cocos Island on the southern tip of Guam. Constructed from Nov 1944 the network became operational on 1 March 1945 and was manned by the USCG.

https://www.loran-history.info/research/loran_a/referencess/The-Coast-Guard-at-War-Vol-II.pdf

An extract from this reads as follows:-

"Coast Guard Plane, PBY-5 no. 189 piloted by Lt. Comdr. Clement Vaughn, the first
plane to be assigned to western Pacific Loran construction work, was still in continuous
use. This plane which carried the siting parties to the various sites, was used in inspection
of the stations, and made many long flights in the running of system accuracy checks on
the completed Loran chains. The conditions under which the plane and crew worked
were, at times, extremely hazardous.
Coast Guard plane, PBY-5A piloted by Lt. (later Lt. Comdr.) O"Neill, was also assigned
to this Loran work. This plane in turn was exchanged at Kaneohe Air Station, Hawaii, for
a Liberator, No. 490, and with the same crew was based at Guam. Later the Liberator was
exchanged at Tinian Air Station for a Privateer, No. 598, which proved even more
valuable in the work, due to greater carrying capacity and higher speed. Over 180
missions and 700 flight hours were performed by this crew. The Privateer was transferred
to DCGO, 14ND, late in December."



So it would appear these airdraft were on temporary loan from the USN, rather than permanent assignment to the USCG.

 

[EwenS]

Alwyn T Lloyd in "Liberator. America's Global Bomber" notes

5 PB4Y-1 between 1944 & 1946 replaced by
9 PB4Y-2G Privateers for search & rescue and weather recce and flown from NAS Barbers Point Hawaii and USCG Air Station San Francisco. They included BuNo 66302 & 66306. These had the glazed CG nose etc discussed above.

Alan C Carey's book on the PB4Y-2 Privateer notes that the USCG used 13 P4Y-2G Privateers between 1946 & 1958 from the bases noted above. Several of these went on to become fire bombers in civilian hands. BuNos included 66300, 66302, 66304, 66306 and 59688. The last was delivered to the USCG in Jan 1953 and was operated until June 1957 after previous service with VP-21.

So possibly confusion between models for the reference to 9? And more being delivered in the 1950s as attrition replacements or increase in size of units?

Note the designation change from PB4Y-2G to P4Y-2G that took place in 1951.

66300 - CG use from "circa 1951" to Aug 1958
66302 - as above
66304 - Jan 1953 to CG after conversion. Used to repair 66261
66261 - to CG from storage 1953. For disposal 1959.

 

[GreenKnight121]

The USCG may have recieved nine, but for various reasons, only used five of them, which is not unusual.

Although the numbers seem to refer to two different models of the aircraft, the above comment remains valid, as there would be a need for an instructional airframe, spare parts, etc.