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Of course hard evidence could be provided, if it existed. Your thesis is that fighter designers deliberately kept the recoil/weight ratios of the armament below a certain figure. So all you have to do is to find evidence that fighter designers were aware of this problem, and deliberately aimed to keep the recoil/weight ratio below the limit you have identified.delcyros said:I showed that the recoil of this layout exceeded typical ww2 Fighter A/C values by much. This may not be a hard evidence but it cannot be neglected either. We should remember that no such weapon layout was tried out and tested so far.
In this light nobody will be able to give hard evidence for an armement layout not tried. You want me to quantify the unquantifyable. I am not going to do so, I am only able to make it plausible to some degree or to throw my concerns into the discussion.
Tony Williams said:Neither have I come across any mention of it in pilot's reports, nor any comments in any independent evaluatons of aircraft, with the few exceptions I have mentioned (of which only the Yak-9T and Yak-9K were fighters). I must therefore conclude that it did not exist.
Jank said:So what. I'm sure that in 1940, had you been in the USAAC, you would have told Alexander Kartvelli that his idea for an 11,500lb behemoth, armed with 8 x .50 cal machine guns "exceeded typical ww2 Fighter A/C values by much" and that therefore, it could not possibly be a success and was a waste of time and money.
In war you attempt to direct resources efficiently. If there are planes with better air to air performance (Spitfire), you put them there in that role. The Hurricane was obsolete as an air to air resource whether with 8 x .303's or 4 x 20mm's.
delcyros said:Tony, if You are still around here, I have a question regarding MK 103 projectile weights:
WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER GUN EFFECTIVENESS
this page gives the projectile weight for the MK 103 with 330g for HE (M) rounds (MK 108 HE(M): 330g),
altough Lunatics values are:
Lunatic's WWII Aircraft Gun Ballistics Page
MK 103: 330g; MK 108: 312g, both for HE(M) Ausf.A rounds
to make things more complicated
The Bf 109´s guns
and my books list the projectile weight of the MK 103 with 530 g with a round weight of 980 g instead of 780g. (MK 108: 330g with a round weight of 480g)
???
And a second question regarding the gunmount weights for 0.50cal and 20mm guns. Esspecially the later with recoil damping applications.
Thanks in advance,
Tony Williams said:Many similar but different 30mm projectiles were used in the MK 108 and the MK 101/103 towards the end of the war.
The primary tank-hunting ammo used in the MK 103 was the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition, which weighed in at 355 g and was fired at 940 m/s. The M-Geschoss weighed 330 g and were fired at 860 m/s (although the MK 101 fired them at 930 m/s). The reason for these odd figures is that the MK 101 was a stronger gun than the MK 103, so the M-Geschoss loading for the MK 103 was reduced in pressure and velocity. The Hartkern round was not reduced because velocity was so important for penetration, so they took the risk of a short gun life when using it. Incidentally, the speed of operation of the MK 103's mechanism was sensitive to the ammo - it fired at 420 rpm when using M-Geschoss, 360 when firing Hartkern.delcyros said:Thanks for clarifcation, Tony. I just noticed that the heavier 530g projectile was primarely used for tank hunter Hs 129. Didn´t knew that the lighter 330g projectile was exclusively used for HE-mine rounds. I find it interesting to note that muzzle velocity figures for both unsimilar projectiles are pretty identic. Probably explainable by the larger cartidge with more propellant contents.
I do suspect that the trajectory of the heavier projectile is far superior due to a better sectional density with all other factors beeing identic. Should be noted that the brutto recoil of a gun firing the heavier projectile is ~ 75% bigger!
The M-Geschoss varied with type, the original blunt-nosed Ausf.A containing 80-85 g, the streamlined Ausf.C more like 70-75 g.delcyros said:That´s nice info, Tony.
Do You know what the HE-content for HE and APHE/APHEI and HE(M)rounds was?
There is no simple answer to that question, mainly because AP bullets and HE shells have different destructive mechanisms, which are differently affected by distance. They will also have different effects depending on the structure of the plane, and where they hit it.delcyros said:Thanks again. I was just asking becuase I do still not know, how to rate projectile effectiveness at impact relation (not at muzzle relation).
I have seen several attempt, so far none of them convinced me:
1.) "influencal zone" (ignores HE content, impact velocity and obliquity but takes fragmentation into account): shell weight / 4pi r2.
2.) Via blast effect (ignores true impact velocity but takes HE content into account)
3.) Via momentum (takes impact velocity and shellweight into consideration, only).