A better thought-out '2nd gen' of German 2-engined A/C?

[tomo pauk]

Me 210/410, Ju 288, He 219, Ta 154, Ar 240/440, Do 335 - neither was a succes story wrt. what it did in ww2, apart from He 219 shooting down some number of RAF heavies. Whether due to the faulty design process, no engine materializing, choice of a wrong material, being too late, or a combination of these and other factors, like politics or, indeed, Allies being ever better in air warfare.
The promissing Fw 187 never played the role in the LW plans, while the jet-powered Ar 234 was too late.
Okay, Me 262 was the exception, but it was not available in numbers needed.

So what should've the LW twin-engined A/C looked like, in order to became a worthy opponnet to the Alies, so to speak? Timing is very important consideration, the A/C in question need to be in service as early as 1942, preferably in 1941 (thus having the design process start some time 1938, or 1937 for the use in 1941 - provided the A/C is just a spin-off from what already exists). Roles for the A/C are mostyl that of bombing and night-fighting, and perhaps recon job. Day aerial fighting if one feels adventurous.
Only historical aerodynamics, materials, engines and guns are available.

 

[Shortround6]

No love for the Bf 110??

Granted it didn't have the "flash" of some of the others but it did provide very useful service. Much like the Beaufighter was never going to be a daylight fighter or fast long range bomber but still good much useful work.

Me 210, Ju 288

One was over twice the gross weight of the other.
You need a plane in each catagory/weight class.

Only historical aerodynamics, materials, engines and guns are available.

With Historical German engines you are sort of screwed.
The 9 cylinder radials are not powerful enough which leaves the over subscribed BMW 801.

Without speeding up the DB603 development you are limited to the same engines as the Bf 110/Me 210 (just stick the one meter of fuselage in it in 1939)
Jumo doesn't get the 213 functional until 1943, perhaps they could have gotten it into production quicker?

 

[tomo pauk]

No love for the Bf 110??

Along with the Ju 88 - not a 'new gen' twin.

One was over twice the gross weight of the other.
You need a plane in each catagory/weight class.

We can go with 3 caregories - one more suited for speed (size/weight of P-38? without the urge to go twin boom), another a multipurpose A/C like Mosquito, and 3rd as a bomber (that needs to be fast enough in order to be worth discussing about, otherwise we might forget it and go with Do 217, unsexy as it was).

With Historical German engines you are sort of screwed.
The 9 cylinder radials are not powerful enough which leaves the over subscribed BMW 801.

If the size, weight and aerodynamics are right, a V12 can fit the bill.
Granted, the BMW 801 has it's appeal, despite the weight and bad fuel mileage. 9 cyl radials are really 3rd tier among the - not only - German engines.

Without speeding up the DB603 development you are limited to the same engines as the Bf 110/Me 210 (just stick the one meter of fuselage in it in 1939)
Jumo doesn't get the 213 functional until 1943, perhaps they could have gotten it into production quicker?

Jumo will need to kill the 222 if the 213 is to became available at least 6 months earlier? RLM will be calling the shots here, though; they also need to release mnore of nickel required.
RLM will also need to show some love wrt. the DB 603, while DB will need to come out with a better lubrication system for their engines.
All in all - BMW 801 until late 1943 on A/C bigger/heavier than Mosquito (the original, not the copy), by what time the big V12s can come into play?

 

[Shortround6]

We can go with 3 caregories - one more suited for speed (size/weight of P-38? without the urge to go twin boom), another a multipurpose A/C like Mosquito, and 3rd as a bomber (that needs to be fast enough in order to be worth discussing about, otherwise we might forget it and go with Do 217, unsexy as it was).

I am on the Fence about the size/weight of the P-38. However the "P-38" kind of stretched a lot. While it gained about 1000lbs empty from the D to L it went from 1150hp to 1600hp and it gained 6000lbs in max gross weight. I am not sure that the Germans can match that for stretch. The engine and turbocharger weights only went up a small amount.
The Germans have less need for a long range single seat fighter. Or for the Fw 187 even a stretched version. Using 2 engines to carry just about the same fire power as a Spitfire Vc (ok, more ammo) does not seem like a good plan for the Germans. Not a lot of gain for the expended resources. This is thread about twin engine airplanes but without the range requirements that the Allies faced the need for twin instead of better 109 single goes from really needed to just nice to have.

The Mid-size plane may offer the best improvement.

The larger catagory is stuck, The Germans simply don't have the engines needed for large heavy planes. The US screwed up, they could have been making A-26s in 1943 if they had really tried. But they had a simple, effective, mass produced 2000hp engine in 1942-43. The Germans didn't. 1700-1800hp engines are 10-15% behind.
If you want a similar power to weight ratio for the German planes you need to be 4000-6000lbs lighter, and that takes a lot of cleverness in design and streamlining.

The Germans do have their power boosting systems but their power boosting systems are bulky and heavy.

 

[wuzak]

We can go with 3 caregories - one more suited for speed (size/weight of P-38? without the urge to go twin boom), another a multipurpose A/C like Mosquito, and 3rd as a bomber (that needs to be fast enough in order to be worth discussing about, otherwise we might forget it and go with Do 217, unsexy as it was).

So a fighter/reconnaissance, multirole light bomber/reconnaissance/attack/night-fighter and a medium bomber?

 

[wuzak]

So what should've the LW twin-engined A/C looked like, in order to became a worthy opponnet to the Alies, so to speak?

Does a twin DB 606 or DB 610 aircraft count as twin engined?

 

[wuzak]

Would the Me 210 be the best fit for a fighter in this scenario?

It was conceived before the war and flew on September 2, the day after Germany invaded Poland.

Ditch the internal bomb bay contraption, lose the remote gun armament, and possibly lose the 2nd crewmember, trim the wing span a little, and save some weight (empty weight of Me 210 was about 500kg greater than Mosquito B.XVI, around 1,200kg more than P-38L).

Fix the aerodynamic issues that the historic Me 210 suffered.

2 x DB 605 should give quite good performance.

A 2 seat night-fighter version could also be made.

 

[z42]

First, what is the purpose of the aircraft? Arguably after BoB Germany had little need for a long range daytime escort fighter, so lets forget that one. Night fighter, ok that can be useful, although AFAIU Bf 110 did ok in that role, you don't need a speed racer to catch up with the night bombers lumbering along at 320 km/h. A daytime long range fighter as long as you don't send it up against Spitfires, e.g. for shooting down Allied submarine patrol aircraft. A medium bomber could also be useful, Germany had a variety of mediocre ones, if these could be replaced with a really good one with higher bomb load and better survivability that could be useful. And a long range photo-rec aircraft could also be useful, though for this you want to be high and fast so you'd probably need a good 2 stage supercharger, which Germany lacked in the time frame we're looking at, so..

For tail gunners, well, the German tradition of dorsal and ventral guns with limited field of fire and equipped with rifle caliber machine guns are going to do piddly squat against the cannon armed fighters that will appear soon enough, so get rid of the weight and drag of these and concentrate on making the plane fast instead.

So we end up with something like a German Mosquito, a fast two man multirole aircraft that can be equipped as a night fighter or a bomber/strike aircraft. And why not photo-rec too if engines with good high altitude performance can be conjured.

Engines are going to be the problem. DB 603 or Jumo 213 could be suitable, but both are too late. BMW 801 could also work, but how long until production has ramped enough that there's something left over from FW 190 production? DB 605 or one of the later variants of Jumo 211 are questionable, but maybe doable if the drag of the airframe can be brought down enough.

 

[tomo pauk]

I am on the Fence about the size/weight of the P-38. However the "P-38" kind of stretched a lot. While it gained about 1000lbs empty from the D to L it went from 1150hp to 1600hp and it gained 6000lbs in max gross weight. I am not sure that the Germans can match that for stretch. The engine and turbocharger weights only went up a small amount.

Between 1941 and 1943, LW will have V12s making between 1250 and 1550 HP, so that is in the ballpark (I didn't take the 603 and 213 into consideration). Yes, P-38 had turboes to help out, vs. 'normal' V12s having exhaust thrust on their side, lower drag vs. P-38J/L installation (no intercooler), less internal volume required, as well as better taking advantage of the ram effect.
Germans also don't need to go with twin boom layout.

The Germans have less need for a long range single seat fighter. Or for the Fw 187 even a stretched version. Using 2 engines to carry just about the same fire power as a Spitfire Vc (ok, more ammo) does not seem like a good plan for the Germans. Not a lot of gain for the expended resources. This is thread about twin engine airplanes but without the range requirements that the Allies faced the need for twin instead of better 109 single goes from really needed to just nice to have.

LR fighter was needed for the long distances involved in Russia and in MTO.
Spitfire Vc is sorta red herring - theoretically it was there, while in reality the 4 cannon set-up was rare as hen's teeth. Four 20mm cannons on a 2-engined LR fighter are more than enough and don't over-tax the installed power too much.
The smallest airframe I can think of is probably the shape & size of Ar 234, but with piston engines, while the biggest might be the Ta 154 (albeit in light alloy execution, no wood).

Off topic - Granted, a Fw 190 powered by a 1300-1500 HP V12s and with two drop tanks should be very useful here, IMO, but with max 3 cannons.

The Mid-size plane may offer the best improvement.

As a bomber and night fighter, it probably might.
Shape and wing size of what He 219 had (= ballpark of the Mosquito), both V12s and BMW 801 for the starters, with fuselage shorter and lighter than that of the He 219, with bomb bay in fuselage.
It might be stretching a bit, but an A/C in Ta 154 league that is designed as a bomber might also work?

Not sure why the Me 210/410 were so slow on installed power.

The larger catagory is stuck, The Germans simply don't have the engines needed for large heavy planes. The US screwed up, they could have been making A-26s in 1943 if they had really tried. But they had a simple, effective, mass produced 2000hp engine in 1942-43. The Germans didn't. 1700-1800hp engines are 10-15% behind.
If you want a similar power to weight ratio for the German planes you need to be 4000-6000lbs lighter, and that takes a lot of cleverness in design and streamlining.

For the large category, it is probably the early, small (wing area of 54 sqm - 580 sq ft) Ju-288 with cockpit for 3 people and BMW 801s (in 1943 these were making 1900 HP ).
Aircraft with fuselage smape & size of He 219, but with a bigger wing is also a consideration.

The Germans do have their power boosting systems but their power boosting systems are bulky and heavy.

Care to elaborate?

Does a twin DB 606 or DB 610 aircraft count as twin engined?

4 engined for the purposes of this thread.

 

[tomo pauk]

So a fighter/reconnaissance, multirole light bomber/reconnaissance/attack/night-fighter and a medium bomber?

Yes, but not set in stone. 2 categories can do it, too - one more focused to speed, and another more focused at payload (while still being faster than the current German bombers).

 

[tomo pauk]

Would the Me 210 be the best fit for a fighter in this scenario?
It was conceived before the war and flew on September 2, the day after Germany invaded Poland.
Ditch the internal bomb bay contraption, lose the remote gun armament, and possibly lose the 2nd crewmember, trim the wing span a little, and save some weight (empty weight of Me 210 was about 500kg greater than Mosquito B.XVI, around 1,200kg more than P-38L).
Fix the aerodynamic issues that the historic Me 210 suffered.
2 x DB 605 should give quite good performance.
A 2 seat night-fighter version could also be made.

Me 210/410 certainly suffered due it's aerodynamics not being good enough, eg. wing thickness at root was 18% (NACA 23018; compare to the P-38 being often criticised for it's thinner 23016 profile; Mosquito was at 15%). Historical wing will not cut it; even if we clip it a bit, the thick parts remain. Perhaps extend the chord by designing the LE radiators' setup, like it was done with Mossie, Hornet, as well as suggested by NACA for the P-38?

So we end up with something like a German Mosquito, a fast two man multirole aircraft that can be equipped as a night fighter or a bomber/strike aircraft. And why not photo-rec too if engines with good high altitude performance can be conjured.

Engines are going to be the problem. DB 603 or Jumo 213 could be suitable, but both are too late. BMW 801 could also work, but how long until production has ramped enough that there's something left over from FW 190 production? DB 605 or one of the later variants of Jumo 211 are questionable, but maybe doable if the drag of the airframe can be brought down enough.

Mosquito-lookalike makes so much sense. I'd settle with 'normal' V12s need be.

 

[z42]

Me 210/410 certainly suffered due it's aerodynamics not being good enough, eg. wing thickness at root was 18% (NACA 23018; compare to the P-38 being often criticised for it's thinner 23016 profile; Mosquito was at 15%). Historical wing will not cut it; even if we clip it a bit, the thick parts remain. Perhaps extend the chord by designing the LE radiators' setup, like it was done with Mossie, Hornet, as well as suggested by NACA for the P-38?

I don't think LE radiators are going to save the wing. Needs a better design ground-up.

Secondly, the power-egg approach was probably critical to keeping these airframes in the air and rolling off the production lines, considering Germany's issues with engine reliability and availability.

Mosquito-lookalike makes so much sense. I'd settle with 'normal' V12s need be.

Probably no realistic alternative if it's going to fly in 41/42 and we're limited to historical engines.

Would it be realistic to start with, say Jumo 211, and then later introduce an improved version with 603/213/801's? Those later engines, while more powerful, also weigh several hundred kg's more than the 211's. And probably you'll want to use that power not only for more speed but also heavier armament or bigger bomb load, but all this will start to drive the wing loading up..

 

[tomo pauk]

I don't think LE radiators are going to save the wing. Needs a better design ground-up.

Probably you're right.

Probably no realistic alternative if it's going to fly in 41/42 and we're limited to historical engines.

Would it be realistic to start with, say Jumo 211, and then later introduce an improved version with 603/213/801's? Those later engines, while more powerful, also weigh several hundred kg's more than the 211's. And probably you'll want to use that power not only for more speed but also heavier armament or bigger bomb load, but all this will start to drive the wing loading up..

Yes, I'll start with Jumo 211s - easier to spare those then the 601s/605s, and, beyond 5 min Emergency power setting, the available power was in the ballpark.

 

[Shortround6]

Between 1941 and 1943, LW will have V12s making between 1250 and 1550 HP, so that is in the ballpark (I didn't take the 603 and 213 into consideration). Yes, P-38 had turboes to help out, vs. 'normal' V12s having exhaust thrust on their side, lower drag vs. P-38J/L installation (no intercooler), less internal volume required, as well as better taking advantage of the ram effect.
Germans also don't need to go with twin boom layout.

The engines (and turbos) in the P-38 didn't gain much weight. The Props gained some. For the Germans the change from early DB601 to a 605 was around 110-120kg for each engine, it was doable and increased performance but the P-38s weight gain wasn't as much so the actual capability of the plane (payload) went up a bit more. I am talking about the engines only, don't really care about the twin boom layout here for the Germans.

Spitfire Vc is sorta red herring - theoretically it was there, while in reality the 4 cannon set-up was rare as hen's teeth. Four 20mm cannons on a 2-engined LR fighter are more than enough and don't over-tax the installed power too much.

The Spitfire VC is sort of a faint pink herring. The FW 187 gets brought up a lot and since there was only one (?) prototype with DB 601 engines we get a mishmash the Jumo 210 powered planes capabilities and the later paper FW 187 proposals. As flown the Fw 187 carried two 20mm guns and four 7.9mm machineguns, and the Vc's carried two 20mm guns and four 7.7mm machine guns, We can argue a bit over over ammo. Germans, had they made a DB 601powered FW 187 in 1941, could have swapped the 20mm MG FFs for 20mm MG 151/20 pretty easily but that is still pretty much the armament of a standard Spit Vc.
The paper Fw 187 was about 2250kg heavier than the 187A-0 empty. So yes the paper Fw 187 could haul more ammo than 3 Hawker Tempests but again, on paper.

For the large category, it is probably the early, small (wing area of 54 sqm - 580 sq ft) Ju-288 with cockpit for 3 people and BMW 801s (in 1943 these were making 1900 HP )

For the bombers compare the 30min-1 hour times.
Germans got carried away with small wings and high wing loading but did not have the US Army construction ability to supply the airfields needed.
Jato rockets for "normal" flight operations for German bombers was also not something the Germans could actually sustain on an extended basis.

Care to elaborate?

It varied a lot but the GM-1 installations could be very heavy, Like the Ju-88S installation that filled a bomb bay and was over 900lbs before they filled the tanks.
The MW-50 was a lot lighter but often did not give the impressive numbers. Perhaps much more useful.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The US screwed up, they could have been making A-26s in 1943 if they had really tried.

Didn't 5th AF start getting A26s in fall 1943?

 

[wuzak]

Shape and wing size of what He 219 had (= ballpark of the Mosquito), both V12s and BMW 801 for the starters, with fuselage shorter and lighter than that of the He 219, with bomb bay in fuselage.
It might be stretching a bit, but an A/C in Ta 154 league that is designed as a bomber might also work?

The He 219 had a 2m/6ft greater wingspan, 5.5% greater wing area, was 1.8m/5.8ft longer compared to teh Mosquito, and weighed as much empty as a Mosquito B.XVI with maximum load (and 4,000lb bomb).

 

[tomo pauk]

The engines (and turbos) in the P-38 didn't gain much weight. The Props gained some. For the Germans the change from early DB601 to a 605 was around 110-120kg for each engine, it was doable and increased performance but the P-38s weight gain wasn't as much so the actual capability of the plane (payload) went up a bit more. I am talking about the engines only, don't really care about the twin boom layout here for the Germans.

V-1710 + turbo (+ intercoolers?) = 1350+300 = 1650 lbs? Bare/dry engine weight, haven't included accessories from the P-38 entry from the AHT.
DB 601E = 715 kg = 1576 lbs; DB 605A = 745 kg = 1642 lbs; again bare/dry engine weight.

Not being twin boom allows for greater internal volume, and should be better from production standpoint wrt. manhours investment. Also, at least when looking at DH Hornet vs. P-37J/L, some weight could also be shaved. Less weight away from centreline (good for rate of roll), and less blind spots.

The Spitfire VC is sort of a faint pink herring. The FW 187 gets brought up a lot and since there was only one (?) prototype with DB 601 engines we get a mishmash the Jumo 210 powered planes capabilities and the later paper FW 187 proposals. As flown the Fw 187 carried two 20mm guns and four 7.9mm machineguns, and the Vc's carried two 20mm guns and four 7.7mm machine guns, We can argue a bit over over ammo. Germans, had they made a DB 601powered FW 187 in 1941, could have swapped the 20mm MG FFs for 20mm MG 151/20 pretty easily but that is still pretty much the armament of a standard Spit Vc.
The paper Fw 187 was about 2250kg heavier than the 187A-0 empty. So yes the paper Fw 187 could haul more ammo than 3 Hawker Tempests but again, on paper.

The Fw 187 Heavy indeed needs to have 4 cannons.

Germans got carried away with small wings and high wing loading but did not have the US Army construction ability to supply the airfields needed.
Jato rockets for "normal" flight operations for German bombers was also not something the Germans could actually sustain on an extended basis.

Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't wrt. small wings. It was rare for a 2-engined A/C to have small wings (Ar 234? but even so it was flown with double the number of engines than it was originally the case), even if the 1-engined fighters had these.
As for the Jato rockets, using just one per A/C would've worked provided the A/C in question is not already severely underpowered. Granted, I'm not a fan of these, even if they worked.

It varied a lot but the GM-1 installations could be very heavy, Like the Ju-88S installation that filled a bomb bay and was over 900lbs before they filled the tanks.
The MW-50 was a lot lighter but often did not give the impressive numbers. Perhaps much more useful.

Roger that.
GM-1 installation on the fighters was much smaller, from set of small tanks up to a single bigger tank, 20-is gals, same as the MW-50 tank. I'm not sure that Germany was in position to use tons and tons of the GM-1 mixture on daily basis anyway.
MW-50 gave about 10-15% extra power - might come in handy for taking off under heavy loads? Seems like Jumo 211 never gotten the system, so this is another area where they can improve on (take a page from the Japanese, who were not shy to improve take-off power with ADI).
BMW 801's overboost systems used were pretty light and simple, however.

 

[tomo pauk]

The He 219 had a 2m/6ft greater wingspan, 5.5% greater wing area, was 1.8m/5.8ft longer compared to teh Mosquito, and weighed as much empty as a Mosquito B.XVI with maximum load (and 4,000lb bomb).

Thank you.
I'd again pitch the 'He 219 lite', with shorter fuselage that has a bomb bay, BMW 801 for 1942-43 (Jumo 211 + clipped wings for the eastern front?), perhaps two cannons in the wing roots as fixed armament. Can be a tail drager for all I care.
As a night fighter - several cannons more in the bomb bay, plus electronics needed, of course.

 

[mack8]

Was about to say something about the Me-210, but reading about this He-219- lite got me curious. Just looking at the wiki figures it seems the He-219 was 5 tons heavier than the Me-410, with pretty much same engine. So yeah a 10 ton He-219 should have been quite a sparkling machine. Dunno about a bomb bay, i would keep it as slim as possible (see the underfuselage step on the OTL 219 whether the guns are, must have added quite a lot of drag). As to the BMW-801, would they have enough scarce C3 fuel to run another twin-engine plane?

Anyway, about the Me-210, a simple TL of mine is DB-603 is not cancelled in 1937 so the Me-210 flies with the DB-603 in 1939, which hopefully will induce them to use the longer fuselage from the start, and needs the wing slats. How much weight would deleting the barbettes gain? So this ATL Me-210 is in service in 1941, with speed more or less equal to the later Me-410, and more if the barbettes are eliminated.

 

[Shortround6]

V-1710 + turbo (+ intercoolers?) = 1350+300 = 1650 lbs? Bare/dry engine weight, haven't included accessories from the P-38 entry from the AHT.
DB 601E = 715 kg = 1576 lbs; DB 605A = 745 kg = 1642 lbs; again bare/dry engine weight.

Point I am trying to make is that the P-38 got a lot more power as time went on for very little weight gain. Helped by better fuel.
If the Germans start work in 1938-40 they have limited options for engines and limited growth for existing engines. I am not saying the allies actually planned better. They got lucky and were able to develop the Turbo Allison when 2-3 of the American 'Wonder engines' died almost as long and painful deaths as the Jumo 222 (ok, not quite as long) like the Continental IV-1430 that was trialed in the XP-49 and the Wright Tornado R-2160 which was supposed to power the Lockheed XP-58. 2350hp engines that were only 36in diameter would a improved the streamlining considerably if they had worked.
A P-38D/E with original engines in 1944 would have been something of an disaster. The engines in the XP-49 were supposed to given 1600hp but never came close.
Allison and GE managed to get the later model Allisons to 1600hp but this was not something that could have been foreseen in 1940-41.
We have the advantage of hindsight and can see where some programs went wrong.

Ar 234?

Jets screw everything up. The Jumo jet engines weighed about what a two stage R-1830 did but gave a lot more thrust. Burned a lot more fuel too
Trying to figure out what a piston engine equivalent would be gets very hard.

He 219 needs a lot of shifting around. They could carry around 3370 liters of fuel inside the fuselage and the rear of the engine nacelles. The wing roots carried a lot of 20mm ammo.
They carried all the ammo for the belly tray guns.
you could swap fuel into the wing roots where the ammo was (wing root guns are hard as the length of the gun means the ammo has be near the mid point of the wing.
But we also run into the volume/weight thing. Unless you want to just use one large bomb (Mosquito with Cookie) you run out of volume faster than you run out of weight.

A bomb by itself is heavier per unit of volume but a bomb bay built for multiple bombs needs room to hoist them, fasten them and rig safety wires.

When using the Mosquito as a model lets remember that it held four 500lb bombs internally for a large part of it's life, sometimes a pair of 1000lb target markers.
Keep our expectations of a small, fast twin bomber to near those levels.