Airspeed Horsa

[Wavertree]

Hi there,
After receiving a Revell model kit of the Horsa, I decided to do some research on the markings and found this wonderful post.

Airspeed Horsa Sub collection

Hello to all of you We do not have enough words to thanks to Jed and Alastair for helping us during all the process of reasearch. Actually they did almost all the job, including visiting the IWM for photo and film references. Here are the gliders included in this series and done by my...

ww2aircraft.net

I bought the kit so that I could do a model of a Horsa that my father trained on at the HGCU, RAF Peplow.
After seeing so many versions, I am now confused! The training version had the yellow and black stripes on the lower fuselage and the underside of the wings - got that, but I see that there is a Horsa with yellow wingtips on the upper surface. Is this correct or was it markings for some other variant?
Help would be appreciated as I plan to have it finished for 2024 - 80 years after he did his training.

 

[Wurger]

The one with the yellow wingtips is Airspeed Horsa Mk I Prototype used for load and performance trials. The camo scheme is supposed only. As memo serves, these gliders used operationally had the undersides of different colour. Usually it was the black. But those used for trainings had the yellow-black strips there.

 

[Wavertree]

The one with the yellow wingtips is Airspeed Horsa Mk I Prototype used for load and performance trials. The camo scheme is supposed only. As memo serves, these gliders used operationally had the undersides of different colour. Usually it was the black. But those used for trainings had the yellow-black strips there.

Thank you - now all I have to do is get the applicable decals made and then it's snip, snip, and Bob's your Auntie!

 

[Wurger]

 

[Wavertree]

Thank you - now all I have to do is get the applicable decals made and then it's snip, snip, and Bob's your Auntie!

It seems strange that the training paint pattern was not carried through to the upper surface as training markings were normally on the upper surface of the wings and sides as well as underneath. Perhaps they thought that they would flip on unplanned landings and easily be seen!

 

[SaparotRob]

I've always been fond of yellow wings, myself.

 

[Wurger]

It seems strange that the training paint pattern was not carried through to the upper surface as training markings were normally on the upper surface of the wings and sides as well as underneath. Perhaps they thought that they would flip on unplanned landings and easily be seen!

The yellow colour for the traning RAF planes was introduced in 1935. The colour was applied overall. The kind of painting was used until the mid of 1940 although the RAF started painting the tops and the fuselage sides in half with the Dark Earth/Dark Green camouflage back in September 1938. The undersides and the fuselage sides in half were of the yellow. During the BoB there were cases of attacking of the RAF training kites by German fighters. Therefore the yellow paint on the fusealge sides was given up and replaced by the full DE/DG camo. The yellow coat was remained on the bottom surfaces though. In June 1944 due to the subsidance of the German threat the RAF training planes got the engine cowling yellow painted overall, a yellow band on the fuselage and the yellow wing tips. The top area of the wing tip painted yellow was 48 inches wide. The undersides still in yellow. The black diagonal ( with angle 60°) strips on undersides and sometimes on the fuselage were used for a school and OTU service, for instance, aircraft tugs, gliders for paratroopers, etc.
Well ...

 

[Jed]

Maybe a bit late but to shed some info as I did a lot of the research into the paint schemes and markings for the Horsa model collection in the original post.

The Horsa had two basic schemes - the training scheme and the operational scheme. The training scheme is what we lovingly refer to the "bumble bee" scheme which is based on the RAF target tug markings and the operational scheme which was black with the colours of the upper camouflage changing depending on the theater of operations. Airspeed prepared drawings for both schemes - 601011 for training and 601012 for operational.

Of the original batch of 200 gliders they started to leave the production line painted in the training scheme - some of the earlier ones having their serials under the wings in red as per the Airspeed drawing but they removed them fairly soon after. These are the ones you often see in photos used by the Glider Pilot Exercise Unit at Netheravon/Thruxton and Heavy Glider Conversion Unit at Brize Norton up to around 1943.

Where things get a bit muddy is around the various changes in the Air Ministry Orders for aircraft camouflage - in short it stated that all training gliders should have the striped scheme and all Operational/OTU gliders should have the same camouflage as their heavy bomber tugs.

The Heavy Glider Conversion unit was considered for all intents and purposes an operational unit - because it was doing type conversion for pilots from the Hotspur to the Horsa plus operational refresher training. Hence, after about mid 1943 all their striped Horsa gliders got repainted.

So at 23 HGCU Peplow they would have had the black operational colour scheme with a training aircraft ident number on the fuselage. I can't tell you which position and colour they were - it seems 21 HGCU used white preferring the front of the fuselage, other units put it in front of the rear roundel. Officially it was meant to be red but empircally it seems not - though the remaining Mk.II fuselage at Middle Wallop does have a painted over red ID on the loading door.

Do you have the serial of the glider he flew? If not I can offer RX647 or RX660 which where Horsa Mk.I at the unit in November '44.

 

[Wavertree]

Jed,
Thanks for the info! My dad trained on the Horsa at HGCU Peplow from Dec 1 to Dec 11, 1944.
Strangely, he did 15 hours on the Horsa beore going on to the Hadrian, but had done 6 hours on the Hotspur at 1 GTS RAF Croughton before going to Peplow.
According to his log book, he flew the following Horsas:
RN364/3; and then
Horsas 5, 10, 15, 17, & 18.
Tony

 

[Jed]

The introduction of the Hadrian training was because it was chosen to be the type the RAF would operate in Asia against Japan. Fortunately it never came to that. It was chosen over the Horsa and Hadrian for various reasons - they couldn't stand up to the climate, there was no practical way of breaking them down for shipping, the sea air would of accelerated their deterioration and their was no suitable local wood to maufacture them in India or China. The Hadrian (and CG-13) hence became a better choice logistically and why training started for all pilots in 1944/45.

1 GTS is where he would of qualified as a glider pilot and got his wings, HGCU was basically an operation type conversion unit to learn to fly larger operational gliders. Sometimes pilots record the full serial, sometimes just the identification number (or chalk number on exercises/operations) - there doesn't seem to be a specific rule.

 

[EwenS]

Between 16 Nov 1944 and 27 Jan 1945 the RAF formed 6 glider squadrons in India - numbers 668 to 673. Pilots came from both the RAF and the Glider Pilot Regiment. Each squadron was to have an establishment of 80 Hadrian gliders plus 10 Tiger Moths. 670 received Horsas between Dec 1945 and July 1946. Four of the squadrons disbanded between 25th Oct 1945 and 10 Nov 1945 with the remaining pair disbanding 1 July 1946.

These units were to support an airborne corps being set up in India in 1945. It was to comprise 44th (Indian) Airborne Division which formed in Sept 1944 from units in India and 6th British Airborne Division which was to be sent out in summer 1945 (the first element, 5th Parachute Brigade arrived in India in July 1945). Operations would have been in the SEAC area of operations in late 1945/early 1946, most probably in Thailand or French Indochina but actual planning had not gone that far when the war ended.

A number of RAF airborne squadrons were also earmarked for the Far East. The first of these, 298 with Halifax VII, arrived at Raipur, India in July 1945. It was to be followed by a number of UK based Dakota squadrons.

 

[Wavertree]

Between 16 Nov 1944 and 27 Jan 1945 the RAF formed 6 glider squadrons in India - numbers 668 to 673. Pilots came from both the RAF and the Glider Pilot Regiment. Each squadron was to have an establishment of 80 Hadrian gliders plus 10 Tiger Moths. 670 received Horsas between Dec 1945 and July 1946. Four of the squadrons disbanded between 25th Oct 1945 and 10 Nov 1945 with the remaining pair disbanding 1 July 1946.

These units were to support an airborne corps being set up in India in 1945. It was to comprise 44th (Indian) Airborne Division which formed in Sept 1944 from units in India and 6th British Airborne Division which was to be sent out in summer 1945 (the first element, 5th Parachute Brigade arrived in India in July 1945). Operations would have been in the SEAC area of operations in late 1945/early 1946, most probably in Thailand or French Indochina but actual planning had not gone that far when the war ended.

A number of RAF airborne squadrons were also earmarked for the Far East. The first of these, 298 with Halifax VII, arrived at Raipur, India in July 1945. It was to be followed by a number of UK based Dakota squadrons.

Presumably the towing aircraft were used as normal bombers and only those aircraft at training airfields were used solely for towing?

 

[EwenS]

Presumably the towing aircraft were used as normal bombers and only those aircraft at training airfields were used solely for towing?

Not really.

In Britain in Jan 1942, 38 Wing was formed to directly support airborne forces operations eventually expanding to Group status in Oct 1943. By D-Day it had 4 squadrons of Albemarles, 4 of Stirlings and 2 of Halifaxes. In the latter part of 1944 the Albemarles were traded for more Stirling and Halifax aircraft. These aircraft were configured for dropping paratroops and glider towing and were used for both training and operational purposes (See Operation Market Garden in Sept 1944 and Varsity in March 1945). When not so engaged they were most often used for supply dropping to resistance units and Allied units like the SAS operating behind enemy lines after D-Day. IIRC these units may have carried out a handful of bombing operations (It's been awhile since I looked at their ORBs, which are available as a free download from the National Archives if you register with them). By July 1945 38 Group had been transferred to Transport Command and had 6 Halifax and 4 Stirling squadrons. 298 squadron, had been part of 38 Wing/Group throughout its existence, firstly with Whitleys for a few months in 1942 and then Halifaxes of various models from Nov 1943 until it disbanded in India in Dec 1946.

The other Group involved with dropping airborne forces on D-Day and in subsequent operations was 46 Group in Transport Command with 5 squadrons of Dakotas. When not so involved these aircraft engaged in general transport duties.

Once the war in Europe was over there was to be a very large movement of troops, aircraft and RN vessels eastwards to both SEAC in the Indian Ocean & to the Pacific. The RN led the charge but the Army & RAF were only beginning the shift when Japan surrendered. So a lot of RAF plans never reached fruition.

One RAF change that did occur was the move from bombers to transport roles. 4 Group which had been entirely Halifax bomber equipped in Britain was transferred in its entirety to Transport Command on 8 May 1945, VE Day, with squadrons beginning to re-equip with various transport aircraft types ahead of moving east. A lot of surplus Liberator aircraft from Coastal Command were converted to the transport role and issued to some of these units.

Meanwhile in India, in April 1945, 238 (Airborne Assault) Group was formed to control 343 & 344 Wings with the previously mentioned 6 Hadrian squadrons plus 96 Dakota squadron and 1577 (Glider Development or Airborne Experimental from 8/45) Flight. 96 squadron had reformed as a transport squadron at the end of Dec 1944 in Britain and re-equipped with Dakotas before leaving for India where it arrived at the beginning of May. (Theoretically 215 squadron that had converted from Liberator bombers in April 1945 to Dakotas in India was also part of this Group but was detached to 232 Group for general transport duties across SEAC). As previously noted 298 squadron with Halifax A.VII aircraft, and formerly part of 38 Group, arrived from the UK in July and was followed in Sept/Oct 1945 by 3 former Halifax bomber squadrons from 4 Group that had converted to Dakotas.

By 1 Aug 1945 there were 8 Dakota squadrons (incl 215) in 232 (Transport) Group in India. This included 2 Canadian squadrons (435 & 436) which, for political reasons had to be withdrawn to Europe at the beginning of Sept. They were replaced by 2 Transport Command Dakota squadrons from Britain that arrived in Aug.

In 1945 there was a high demand for transport aircraft in SEAC not only due to the distances involved and the lack of road and rail links, but because until the end of May 1945 a large part of the aerial transport lift had been provided by units of the US 10th US Air Force based in India. Once Rangoon had been captured these units were withdrawn from supporting British forces as the USA did not wish to be seen to be involved in helping European Nations recover their former colonies. Why only after Rangoon? That allowed much easier transportation of supplies to China via the Irrawady River and Burma Road rather than from Calcutta to northern India and over the mountains to the Burma Road, and that was where US interests in the region really lay.

 

[Wavertree]

Not really.

In Britain in Jan 1942, 38 Wing was formed to directly support airborne forces operations eventually expanding to Group status in Oct 1943. By D-Day it had 4 squadrons of Albemarles, 4 of Stirlings and 2 of Halifaxes. In the latter part of 1944 the Albemarles were traded for more Stirling and Halifax aircraft. These aircraft were configured for dropping paratroops and glider towing and were used for both training and operational purposes (See Operation Market Garden in Sept 1944 and Varsity in March 1945). When not so engaged they were most often used for supply dropping to resistance units and Allied units like the SAS operating behind enemy lines after D-Day. IIRC these units may have carried out a handful of bombing operations (It's been awhile since I looked at their ORBs, which are available as a free download from the National Archives if you register with them). By July 1945 38 Group had been transferred to Transport Command and had 6 Halifax and 4 Stirling squadrons. 298 squadron, had been part of 38 Wing/Group throughout its existence, firstly with Whitleys for a few months in 1942 and then Halifaxes of various models from Nov 1943 until it disbanded in India in Dec 1946.

The other Group involved with dropping airborne forces on D-Day and in subsequent operations was 46 Group in Transport Command with 5 squadrons of Dakotas. When not so involved these aircraft engaged in general transport duties.

Once the war in Europe was over there was to be a very large movement of troops, aircraft and RN vessels eastwards to both SEAC in the Indian Ocean & to the Pacific. The RN led the charge but the Army & RAF were only beginning the shift when Japan surrendered. So a lot of RAF plans never reached fruition.

One RAF change that did occur was the move from bombers to transport roles. 4 Group which had been entirely Halifax bomber equipped in Britain was transferred in its entirety to Transport Command on 8 May 1945, VE Day, with squadrons beginning to re-equip with various transport aircraft types ahead of moving east. A lot of surplus Liberator aircraft from Coastal Command were converted to the transport role and issued to some of these units.

Meanwhile in India, in April 1945, 238 (Airborne Assault) Group was formed to control 343 & 344 Wings with the previously mentioned 6 Hadrian squadrons plus 96 Dakota squadron and 1577 (Glider Development or Airborne Experimental from 8/45) Flight. 96 squadron had reformed as a transport squadron at the end of Dec 1944 in Britain and re-equipped with Dakotas before leaving for India where it arrived at the beginning of May. (Theoretically 215 squadron that had converted from Liberator bombers in April 1945 to Dakotas in India was also part of this Group but was detached to 232 Group for general transport duties across SEAC). As previously noted 298 squadron with Halifax A.VII aircraft, and formerly part of 38 Group, arrived from the UK in July and was followed in Sept/Oct 1945 by 3 former Halifax bomber squadrons from 4 Group that had converted to Dakotas.

By 1 Aug 1945 there were 8 Dakota squadrons (incl 215) in 232 (Transport) Group in India. This included 2 Canadian squadrons (435 & 436) which, for political reasons had to be withdrawn to Europe at the beginning of Sept. They were replaced by 2 Transport Command Dakota squadrons from Britain that arrived in Aug.

In 1945 there was a high demand for transport aircraft in SEAC not only due to the distances involved and the lack of road and rail links, but because until the end of May 1945 a large part of the aerial transport lift had been provided by units of the US 10th US Air Force based in India. Once Rangoon had been captured these units were withdrawn from supporting British forces as the USA did not wish to be seen to be involved in helping European Nations recover their former colonies. Why only after Rangoon? That allowed much easier transportation of supplies to China via the Irrawady River and Burma Road rather than from Calcutta to northern India and over the mountains to the Burma Road, and that was where US interests in the region really lay.

Ewen - fascinating stuff; you must have done a lot of research!
I presume the pilots for the six squadrons were sent out by air. My father was, but was the only passenger on a Sunderland - perhaps a mail flight??
The large amount of transports would not only need to ferry urgent supplies out, but also in anticipation of the large number of people -especially the PoWs - who would need to be repatriated after VJ Day. I don't remember my father telling me how he got back to Blighty, but presume he came by sea as there is nothing in his log books about being a passenger.
The RAF pilots underwent some military training at Quetta before being posted - most probably telating to local conditions as they had already done the "soldier" bit at 1 GTS. Apparently they made some kind of impression because there was some story about the stone lions outside the officers' mess ending up in a fountain! The squadron personnel then moved by train across to the west side of India by train, with the advance party driving the locomotive after bribing the drivers with some of their big wheels of cheese! The squadron's supply of beer also disappeared - most probably evaporated in the heat!!
Interesting that you say half the pilots were GPR - he never mentioned them at any stage during his time out there and I have never come across any reference to them before.
The size of the squadrons (80 gliders) is enormous! Do you know how the GPR gliders were organised?

Tony

 

[EwenS]

Ewen - fascinating stuff; you must have done a lot of research!

You could say that. I've been interested in the goings on in SEAC and the Pacific for too many years to recall and have amassed a significant amount of data and books about it.

I presume the pilots for the six squadrons were sent out by air. My father was, but was the only passenger on a Sunderland - perhaps a mail flight??
The large amount of transports would not only need to ferry urgent supplies out, but also in anticipation of the large number of people -especially the PoWs - who would need to be repatriated after VJ Day. I don't remember my father telling me how he got back to Blighty, but presume he came by sea as there is nothing in his log books about being a passenger.

I haven't dug into how these aircrew found their way to India, but, seeing as your grandfather was the only passenger he was probably lucky and hitched a lift on a delivery flight. A number of the flying boat units in the Indian Ocean converted from Catalinas to the Sunderland V in 1945. 230 from Jan 1945, and 205 in Ceylon began to get them in June. Most travelled out by sea in troop transports under varying conditions.

Most personnel returning from the Far East travelled by sea. There was a huge shortage of troop shipping in the SEAC theatre even before the end of the war and a great many problems to overcome.

Firstly the Python Scheme. Service personnel that had been sent out to the Far East had been promised that they would only serve 4 years overseas before being shipped home. Following the General Election on 5 July 1945 it was cut firstly to 3 years 8 months and then to 3 years 4 months thus releasing many more personnel who had been shipped out in 1942. All done without consulting Mountbatten who was then trying to organise Operation Zipper, the invasion of Malaya, and which generated a requirement for troop shipping. The RN actually took 3 cruisers then somewhat surplus to requirements in Home Waters and used them as troopships.

Then the war against Japan ended, and firstly there were many to be brought home under the RAPWI scheme (Return of Allied Prisoners and Internees from prison camps all across the Far East). Then the bulk of the other service personnel had to be brought home for demob. And that depended on a range of factors. But those sent out most recently generally had longest to wait. Personnel would for example be moved between ships to release other individuals with a higher demob status. Aircraft tended to be used in Europe & the Med to augment the available shipping. But some 6 escort carriers were converted to the trooping role in Aug / Sept 1945 and were augmented by the carriers of the BPF for varying lengths of time for the Far East runs on top of any available troopships. And finally there were war brides to be transported around the world. This complete repatriation exercise lasted until early 1947.

The RAF pilots underwent some military training at Quetta before being posted - most probably telating to local conditions as they had already done the "soldier" bit at 1 GTS. Apparently they made some kind of impression because there was some story about the stone lions outside the officers' mess ending up in a fountain! The squadron personnel then moved by train across to the west side of India by train, with the advance party driving the locomotive after bribing the drivers with some of their big wheels of cheese! The squadron's supply of beer also disappeared - most probably evaporated in the heat!!
Interesting that you say half the pilots were GPR - he never mentioned them at any stage during his time out there and I have never come across any reference to them before.

To be clear, I didn't put a figure on the split between RAF and GPR pilots in these squadrons, only that they were drawn from both services. RAF pilots were transfreed to fly gliders in late 1944 because aircrew training had exceeded the replacements needed in the various other Commands.

The size of the squadrons (80 gliders) is enormous! Do you know how the GPR gliders were organised?

Tony

Not really enormous when you consider the troop lift required.

A Hadrian could only carry 13 troops. So 6 squadrons x 80 gliders x 13 men and their equipment = a troop lift of 6,240 men at the very most assuming no gliders for vehicles, artillery or other equipment. A glider borne Airlanding Brigade, of which each Airborne Div had one, consisted of about 2,500 men plus additional personnel from divisional artillery, engineer, signals units etc. So 80 gliders per squadron probably doesn't even lift the entire force if both divisions were deployed at once. Each Airborne Division would also have had 2 Parachute Brigades. And each glider would have needed two pilots.

That is why the Horsa would have been preferred. It carried up to 28 troops.

Because the campaign in Burma had gone so well in 1945, Operation Zipper to invade Malaya had been brought forward and a number of intermediate operations dropped. Planning was for Singapore to be recaptured by the end of 1945. No airborne operations were planned for it, but the 5th Parachute Brigade was used as ordinary infantry due to problems caused by Python (see above). SEAC were only beginning to think about planning beyond Singapore in Aug 1945, because it was only at the end of July that Mountbatten was informed that SEAC would be taking over responsibility for Thailand, half of Indochina and much of the DEI from the Americans and Australians. Then to much surpise the Japanese surrendered when everyone was expecting to have to invade Japan proper in 1946.

 

[Wavertree]

You could say that. I've been interested in the goings on in SEAC and the Pacific for too many years to recall and have amassed a significant amount of data and books about it.

I haven't dug into how these aircrew found their way to India, but, seeing as your grandfather was the only passenger he was probably lucky and hitched a lift on a delivery flight. A number of the flying boat units in the Indian Ocean converted from Catalinas to the Sunderland V in 1945. 230 from Jan 1945, and 205 in Ceylon began to get them in June. Most travelled out by sea in troop transports under varying conditions.

Most personnel returning from the Far East travelled by sea. There was a huge shortage of troop shipping in the SEAC theatre even before the end of the war and a great many problems to overcome.

Firstly the Python Scheme. Service personnel that had been sent out to the Far East had been promised that they would only serve 4 years overseas before being shipped home. Following the General Election on 5 July 1945 it was cut firstly to 3 years 8 months and then to 3 years 4 months thus releasing many more personnel who had been shipped out in 1942. All done without consulting Mountbatten who was then trying to organise Operation Zipper, the invasion of Malaya, and which generated a requirement for troop shipping. The RN actually took 3 cruisers then somewhat surplus to requirements in Home Waters and used them as troopships.

Then the war against Japan ended, and firstly there were many to be brought home under the RAPWI scheme (Return of Allied Prisoners and Internees from prison camps all across the Far East). Then the bulk of the other service personnel had to be brought home for demob. And that depended on a range of factors. But those sent out most recently generally had longest to wait. Personnel would for example be moved between ships to release other individuals with a higher demob status. Aircraft tended to be used in Europe & the Med to augment the available shipping. But some 6 escort carriers were converted to the trooping role in Aug / Sept 1945 and were augmented by the carriers of the BPF for varying lengths of time for the Far East runs on top of any available troopships. And finally there were war brides to be transported around the world. This complete repatriation exercise lasted until early 1947.

To be clear, I didn't put a figure on the split between RAF and GPR pilots in these squadrons, only that they were drawn from both services. RAF pilots were transfreed to fly gliders in late 1944 because aircrew training had exceeded the replacements needed in the various other Commands.


Not really enormous when you consider the troop lift required.

A Hadrian could only carry 13 troops. So 6 squadrons x 80 gliders x 13 men and their equipment = a troop lift of 6,240 men at the very most assuming no gliders for vehicles, artillery or other equipment. A glider borne Airlanding Brigade, of which each Airborne Div had one, consisted of about 2,500 men plus additional personnel from divisional artillery, engineer, signals units etc. So 80 gliders per squadron probably doesn't even lift the entire force if both divisions were deployed at once. Each Airborne Division would also have had 2 Parachute Brigades. And each glider would have needed two pilots.

That is why the Horsa would have been preferred. It carried up to 28 troops.

Because the campaign in Burma had gone so well in 1945, Operation Zipper to invade Malaya had been brought forward and a number of intermediate operations dropped. Planning was for Singapore to be recaptured by the end of 1945. No airborne operations were planned for it, but the 5th Parachute Brigade was used as ordinary infantry due to problems caused by Python (see above). SEAC were only beginning to think about planning beyond Singapore in Aug 1945, because it was only at the end of July that Mountbatten was informed that SEAC would be taking over responsibility for Thailand, half of Indochina and much of the DEI from the Americans and Australians. Then to much surpise the Japanese surrendered when everyone was expecting to have to invade Japan proper in 1946.

I was thinking of the size compared to a standard squadron and the control thereof. Looking closely at my Dad's logbook (not grandfather), I see that he was in Flight 17, controlled by a Flying Officer; this would then indicate that there were 20 flights per squadron for the gliders. Also, the logbook was signed off by the OC of the squadron, who was a Major - hence the proof that GPR personnel were involved. The a/c used to keep up the flying hours were Tiger Moths and Austers - at least 7 of the former and one of the latter, although the hours flown were so small that they could not even be described as minimal.

 

[EwenS]

I was thinking of the size compared to a standard squadron and the control thereof. Looking closely at my Dad's logbook (not grandfather), I see that he was in Flight 17, controlled by a Flying Officer; this would then indicate that there were 20 flights per squadron for the gliders. Also, the logbook was signed off by the OC of the squadron, who was a Major - hence the proof that GPR personnel were involved. The a/c used to keep up the flying hours were Tiger Moths and Austers - at least 7 of the former and one of the latter, although the hours flown were so small that they could not even be described as minimal.

Sorry about muddling up your ancestors.

Lend Lease figures for US glider deliveries are, I find, confusing.

Officially 740 CG-4A gliders were delivered to the RAF of which about 660 were delivered direct to India between mid-1943 and 1945, with most of the remainder being used for evaluation and training in the UK. Other transfers were being authorised in Britain in July 1945 and it is not clear how many were finally shipped out, but the end of the war brought that project to an end. Matters are further confused by possible local transfers from the USAAF in India.

4 (from a total of 6 delivered) of the larger CG-13A gliders were delivered to the RAF in India for trials (probably to 1577 Flight that I noted earlier).

Given that the RAF did not carry out any glider operations that I'm aware of in India / Burma, then the only losses would be from training. Note, AIUI, the Chindits were flown into Burma in 1944 by the USAAF 1st AIr Commando.

I hope this helps you understand the scale of the enterprise.

 

[Wavertree]

Ewen, thanks for the info. I find it very frustrating that I never asked more info from my parents and grand-parents regarding war service, both in WWI and WWII!
So they were at last to send out Horsas to the Far East for Japan operations, but I don't see the problem with sending them out as they were delivered to the Maintenance Units in semi-kit form from the manufacturers (see attached pic). Do you know how the Wacos got there as the problems were even greater getting them to China than getting the Horsas to India. Were they also transported in kit form and from where?

 

[EwenS]

Ewen, thanks for the info. I find it very frustrating that I never asked more info from my parents and grand-parents regarding war service, both in WWI and WWII!

I know the feeling!

So they were at last to send out Horsas to the Far East for Japan operations, but I don't see the problem with sending them out as they were delivered to the Maintenance Units in semi-kit form from the manufacturers (see attached pic). Do you know how the Wacos got there as the problems were even greater getting them to China than getting the Horsas to India. Were they also transported in kit form and from where?

The Waco CG-4A was built by many companies spread across the USA. "Air Arsenal North America" contains some detail linking individual RAF serials to production companies. If you have individual serials you are interested in let me have them and I'll see what I can find.

Air Arsenal North America: Aircraft for the Allies 1938-1945 - Purchases and Lend-Lease: Amazon.co.uk: Hagedorn, Dan, Butler, Phil: 9781857801637: Books

Buy Air Arsenal North America: Aircraft for the Allies 1938-1945 - Purchases and Lend-Lease First Edition by Hagedorn, Dan, Butler, Phil (ISBN: 9781857801637) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Transport was probably by rail from factory to a port on the east coast of the USA. Then by ship across the Atlantic, through the Med (it reopened to shipping from mid-1943) and Suez Canal and then across to India.

They were transported in a number of boxes. This site has a series of photos scrolling across the top showing the assembly process.

NWWIIGPA-GLIDERS

National Association of World War II Glider Pilots

www.ww2gp.org

There were a couple towed across the Atlantic to Britain in 1943 as a trial.

I note you use the phrase "Japan operations". Please be clear any British airborne operations that would have taken place in the Far East, would have occurred in the expanded SEAC area of responsibility. See my posts on this thread for some more detail. But nothing official had been planned for the reasons I set out.

Wallies tell Stalin to leave Japan to them.

A lot of the problems from the post-war period arose due to the USA wanting nothing to do with the reoccupation of the colonies of the European Nations with the result that power vacuums arose which various independence movements, often having been encouraged by the Japanese to take an...

ww2aircraft.net

When it came to invading Japan itself, MacArthur, responsible for ground operations, wanted to keep operations a US only affair. But politics meant that he was forced to accept participation from the other Allies. As things stood at the time of the surrender, a Commonwealth Corps would participate in Operation Coronet scheduled for March 1946. But they would have to be organised and equipped as any US infantry division. The 3 selected were:-

6th Canadian Div - new division forming in Canada summer 1945.
3rd British Div - to move to the Pacific via Canada.
10th Australian - new unit drawn from across the other Australian divisions.

This however was less than Britain wanted, so I don't believe the matter could have been considered completely final.

As per earlier agreements Britain was supply 2 carrier task groups from the BPF to support firstly Operation Olympic against Kyushu in Nov 1945 then Coronet in March 1946. The RAF heavy bomber force, Tiger Force, was to begin arriving on Okinawa in Sept/Oct 1945 with the Tallboy equipped 9 & 617 squadrons arriving first. Airfield Construction Squadrons reached Eniwetok in the Pacific as the ended.

 

[special ed]

As I recall, the CG-4A, in kit form would fit into a C-46.