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According to the de Marre formula, it is more like V^1.4283, or Ek^0.714.Penetration goes up with the square of the speed. 10% more veleocity means 21% more penetration in theory.
The muzzle velocity of 450 m/s was a limitation caused by rotation.The HEAT round at 4.54kg was fired at 450m/s.
The Pak 40 fired a very similar projectile at 450m/s also.
The 8cm PAW fired a 2.70kg HEAT projectile at 520m/s.
Interesting - 1.4MJ of muzzle energy. The cartridge probably had a very shallow bullet seating, therefore a larger amount of powder.US had tested the T45, a HVAP for the M3 75mm gun.
8.4 lbs/3.8kg projectile at 2870fps/870m/s
116mm penetration at 500 yard with 30 degree plate
A very stupid idea - introducing the main utility disadvantage of a recoilless weapon (backblast) without tactical advantages (weapon with minimal mass). In addition, it causes a rather significant loss of muzzle energy.A few posts ago in this thread, I've suggested that the small gas divert tube is added to the small AT gun so the recoil is lowered, since part of the high-speed gasses is pushed backwards. That again means that the whole gun can be lighter due to the lower stress exerted on the weapon. Sorta 10% recoiless gun.
Do you believe in fairy tales?RT-20 was supposedly doing 850 m/s, despite the short barrel and the divertion of small % of the gasses.
I wish you all the best.A very stupid idea
It's nothing personal. Stupid ideas deserve an honest assessment. The lack of feedback deprives you of information when you should have thought twice, making it impossible to improve.I wish you all the best.
But this does not work with any form of composite or space armor. Actual penetration is no greater than ~1.25x caliber.HESH bypasses the 1st step and goes to the 2nd step, several pounds of metal flying around inside the tank.
The best candidate is the 37mm SA 18 for obvious reasons, highly developed (by WWII standards) variants could achieve penetration of up to 50mm.How low might one go and still have a satisfying light AT gun that uses HEAT?
As with all what-if topics, we look at the historical stuff to arrive at the ballpark of what might've been done. A part of this what-if are also the infantry guns. They can get a new lease of life once the HEAT ammo is introduced.Are we looking at history sort of how it actually happened or are we getting into the "what if" if they knew in 1938 what they knew in 1943-44 or a 1938-1948 time shift?
In 1939, except for the British, the Armies had AT guns that went from 310-450 kg in weight and 37mm to 47mm bore size except for the Czech 4.7cm AT gun at 570kg.As with all what-if topics, we look at the historical stuff to arrive at the ballpark of what might've been done. A part of this what-if are also the infantry guns. They can get a new lease of life once the HEAT ammo is introduced.
Some of the short 75-76mm guns were doing pretty well wrt. armor penetration with APHE shells, like the French or the German 75mm guns in the late-1939 tanks. These guns would've be doing well as the base for the towed AT guns, while also very useful to deal with infantry and the light field fortifications.
Advantage of the sizable APHE shell will be that the enemy tank will be a mess even with one hit, something that was not true for the 25-40mm ammo doing the same.
The Germans were large fans of infantry guns. So were the soviets
But the thing weighed about 760-780kg and you are going to need some well fed troops to move it very far without horses.
The US got into and out of infantry guns twice?
For the most part the US kept artillery to the rear and relied on radios for HE support.
Trying to combine the two categories of guns is attractive but may lead to compromises to either role. If you have superior forces you can use HE ammo from your AT guns to supplement other weapons. But at times you want your AT guns in forward positions to stay hidden waiting for the enemy tanks. Which means you need additional guns for HE/smoke support. If you need light weapons due to lack of mechanized transport (or lack of horses) do you want to speed weight on angle mounts for AT guns?
In 1939, except for the British, the Armies had AT guns that went from 310-450 kg in weight and 37mm to 47mm bore size except for the Czech 4.7cm AT gun at 570kg.
The British were really the odd man out with 40mm 2pdr at 814kg but almost 1/2 (?) of that is that Rolls-Royce carriage. The gun tube and breech block was only 131kg.
Simple split trail with 60 degree traverse would have put the 2pdr down in the 450-500kg weight range.
German M36 was a little too light. Ok in the howitzer role not so good in direct fire. Granted the lighter shaped charge projectile was fired with charge 4 but using charge 5 with the standard HE shell meant you could not fire at less than 15 degrees elevation as the gun bounced around too much. The gun pivoted around trail spaded and picked the wheels up of the ground. We are also getting to travel problems. Like designing for horse traction or for 30kph travel or for 50-60kph travel.German mountain gun M36 was at 750 kg indeed, but it offered another 100 m/s over these two guns as well as the split carriage. The muzzle brake was certainly a factor wrt. the weight savings, so there is no reson why the other guns of that category cannot have the muzzle brake, too, in odred to save some weight.
Not really, just stop being idiots and load 40mm Bofors shells into the 2pdr cases, issue 2pdr HE ammo from the start.British buying the licence for the 47mm Bohler would've been even better.
Heavy weight of the gun was a problem. This is why I've suggested that a more sensible weapon is made. Heavy weight meant that the gun was transfered to the artillery units, and away from the infantry units(1), the intended costumer.Not really, just stop being idiots and load 40mm Bofors shells into the 2pdr cases, issue 2pdr HE ammo from the start.
Not great but 2.3 times the amount of TNT in an American 37mm AT gun shell and nobody was leaving them back at base.
Decide what you want the gun to do, then do it and issue at least at least useful ammo accordingly.
Whatever the tank was that the 2pdr was piercing in 1939-41, the Bohler was too. And whatever the better ammo the 2pdr can get, so can the Bohler. British can even arrange the deal so it to fires their 3pdr Hotchkiss ammo.British 2pdr with the first AP shot (not shell) will penetrate at about 500 yds the same armor at 30 degrees as the Italian gun does at 0 degrees.
With either the HV shot (extra powder) or the ABCBC shot it will go through about the same armor at 1000 yds as the Italian gun will do at 550yds.
In fact the Italian gun was rated at 43mm at 0 degrees at 550yds while the 2pdr APCBC was rated at 35mm at 30 degrees at 2000yds. This unfortunately assume the British give it a sight that allows for hitting at 2000yds even allowing for 3rd or 4th round hit.
To return to this.Not really, just stop being idiots and load 40mm Bofors shells into the 2pdr cases, issue 2pdr HE ammo from the start.
Not great but 2.3 times the amount of TNT in an American 37mm AT gun shell and nobody was leaving them back at base.
Not sure that the British infantry was ever the customer.Heavy weight of the gun was a problem. This is why I've suggested that a more sensible weapon is made. Heavy weight meant that the gun was transfered to the artillery units, and away from the infantry units(1), the intended costumer.
Also a lot cheaper and faster to make(2).
1 + 2 meant that British were lacking the modern AT guns in 1940, and that they were using a lot of the borrowed 25mm guns.
Not sure where this is coming from. The Bohler is light gun and there is no magic, the gun in action was 277kg which is much lighter than the German 37mm AT gun? The HE round was fired at 250m/s.Whatever the tank was that the 2pdr was piercing in 1939-41, the Bohler was too. And whatever the better ammo the 2pdr can get, so can the Bohler. British can even arrange the deal so it to fires their 3pdr Hotchkiss ammo.
Money & time saved for not going with the unicorn undercarriage and a newly-designed gun can be used on making the naval 6pdr guns also for the Army needs.
British wasted too much time, resources and money to reinvent the wheel when it is about the AT/tank guns.
The Bohler fired a much smaller cartridge case the old British 3pdr ammo and there were several different types of 3pdr ammo, a lot of it dates from the 1880s.To return to this.
The 47mm Bohler fired, at least in Italian service, a 2.37kg heavy HE shell. No 40mm shells will ever come in close.
Not sure where this is coming from.
Saving money for the army to build coastal defense weapons is not a good trade.
If the goal is to reduce the capabilities of the British army then we don't need much imagination.How much of imagination is required to imagine the RN's 6pdr on a split carriage, or as a tank gun?
Despite me linking to a specific 6pdr, you pull out of a hat the other guns that nobody suggested.If the goal is to reduce the capabilities of the British army then we don't need much imagination.
I am sorry Tomo but this idea of using 10-40 year old barrels is not a good one, either in emergencies or as patterns for new manufacture.
The coast defense 6pdr 10cwt that you linked to is just that, a 1060lb barrel and breech or an extra 300lbs for the crew to move around if we try to use it as an ersatz AT gun. It also, as originally loaded fired a 2.83kg HE shell at 718ms for 731,000 Joules of energy. The cartridge case was bit longer but a bit skinner than the 6pdr 7cwt gun. The AT gun could fire an over 3kg projectile at 790ms even in the short barreled guns. With different weight shot and different velocities things mixed up the the AT gun was operating in an area of around 950,000 to 1 million Joules of energy with the corresponding armor penetration.
And there were not that many of the 6pdr 10cwt guns to swipe.
Usually that was not the case.Trying to use unorthodox ammo (HEAT or SABOT) rounds to try to resurrect these old guns may be a bigger engineering feat than simply designing a gun and ammo to do what you want.
The barrel and breech of the 6pdr 10cwt gun weighed few dozen pounds more than an American 75mm 1917A4 barrel and Breech. It weighed just about the same as an American 105 howitzer barrel and breech. It weighed 60lbs more than 25pdr barrel and Breech. Granted you don't need quite as much chassis but this is not going to be a "light" anti-tank gun. It weighed more than a complete ready to tow American 37mm AT gun.The 6pdr 10cwt gun as an AT gun and as a tank gun can offer the AP performance better than the best light At guns of the day, like eg. the Czech and French 47mm guns, as well as the future short 5cm, and can be had months before 1939, and can offer a lot between 1939 and 1942 (even later with the more modern ammo).
Start designing the 75mm HV by 1940. Both as a tank gun and as an anti-tank gun, and flood the battlefield with these by winter of 1942/43.
The 2pdr gun itself was cheap and light, what was not cheap and light was the 360 degree mount.Hence my prior suggestion to avoid the 2pdr, make a simpler and cheaper light AT gun instead, and use the time and resources saved to increase the production of the 10cwt.
The barrel and breech of the 6pdr 10cwt gun weighed few dozen pounds more than an American 75mm 1917A4 barrel and Breech. It weighed just about the same as an American 105 howitzer barrel and breech. It weighed 60lbs more than 25pdr barrel and Breech. Granted you don't need quite as much chassis but this is not going to be a "light" anti-tank gun. It weighed more than a complete ready to tow American 37mm AT gun.
There are few reasons for the weight, one of which you may be able to solve in this adaptation. The 6pdr 10cwt gun used a freakishly short recoil stroke, quite possibly to help speed up the rate of fire. Does make it easier to put in a tank turret.
TW the 6pdr AT gun was designed in 1938 and test fired in 1939.
The 10cwt was put into production in 1934, the 2pdr was approved in 1936.
Unfortunately, the AT units might have a wee bit of a problem if the mount is not available for a towed gun they just receivedThe 2pdr gun itself was cheap and light, what was not cheap and light was the 360 degree mount.
To take a peek on this.Going to capped or ABCBC is new to some guns but it is old (Mid/late WW I) technology. You can use APCR shot but since you are starting with a medium velocity gun you don't get quite the benefit.