ATR-72 Crash in Brazil

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

An ATR-72 with 62 people on board crashed today. The aircraft was filmed in a complete spin with virtually no forward airspeed.


View: https://x.com/AviationSafety/status/1821963083314835596?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1821963083314835596%7Ctwgr%5E83c54e82a2a719103f56d60a9b59a4893239a793%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fasn.flightsafety.org%2Fwikibase%2F409335

 

[Wurger]

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Horrific.

 

[Snautzer01]

That is bad. Hope some got out.

 

[Wurger]

Nope. Unfortunately, the 62 people were killed. The 58 passengers and 4 crew members .

 

[rob23]

I have never liked the ATR. That wing has always made me hinky. I feel so bad for everyone aboard that thing. As already said, horrific.

 

[Engineman]

This event now speculated as an icing related LOC, which is plausible. IMO, certification of all pax aircraft should require demonstrated ability to recover from all flight conditions such as Icing, Stall, Spin, etc. Furthermore, TP aircraft seem to dice with lethal icing on a daily basis, so their ability to avoid or cope with this problem should be improved beyond the present certification requirements, or do we just accept the regular TP fatal accidents as a price to pay?

Eng

 

[DDonSS3]

My first thought was that those pilots knew what was coming as they were fighting for control and had a long time to think about it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have never liked the ATR. That wing has always made me hinky. I feel so bad for everyone aboard that thing. As already said, horrific.

I flew on one, O'Hare to Columbus on American Eagle, in cold weather, about a year after the icing crash in 1994. I was not comfy-cozy that day.

 

[special ed]

I was told that their single engine performance was momentary.

 

[Gnomey]

My first thought was that those pilots knew what was coming as they were fighting for control and had a long time to think about it.

Yeah that's going to have been the worst bit.

Otherwise all speculation currently.

 

[rob23]

I keep thinking about the passengers. That had to be terrifying. Just horrible.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

I thought that typical icing such as pilot error of holding with flaps out causing ice aft of boots tended to result in one wing stalling before the other, so a roll then crew select dive to gain Aileron authority and then pull as much as required to flex the ice off. Icing of controls such as elevator to the point of locking up requires crew to ignore icing for a long time.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

I was told that their single engine performance was momentary.

This is not the case. Max gross hot day you can still climb. Flight on one engine is not unusually difficult. Turns into good engine only as typical.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

An ATR-72 with 62 people on board crashed today. The aircraft was filmed in a complete spin with virtually no forward airspeed.


View: https://x.com/AviationSafety/status/1821963083314835596?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1821963083314835596%7Ctwgr%5E83c54e82a2a719103f56d60a9b59a4893239a793%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fasn.flightsafety.org%2Fwikibase%2F409335

Because it's fun to speculate, I do not think this was an uncommanded feather or prop disc (fine) event.
My wild speculation is control's failure such as horizontal stabizer or elevator. Or crew was murdered.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Because it's fun to speculate, I do not think this was an uncommanded feather or prop disc (fine) event.
My wild speculation is control's failure such as horizontal stabizer or elevator. Or crew was murdered.

Speculated of course, but I'm pretty sure this was weather related or a structural problem. SIGMET reports show severe icing in the area. The aircraft suffered a tail strike in March that resulted in structural damage.

I'm leaning more towards a stall that was icing induced.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

Speculated of course, but I'm pretty sure this was weather related or a structural problem. SIGMET reports show severe icing in the area. The aircraft suffered a tail strike in March that resulted in structural damage.

I'm leaning more towards a stall that was icing induced.

A recent structure repair is very interesting. Hopefully the wreckage didn't burn up evidence. A stuck horizontal stabilizer or elevator would look like the video I expect.
Ice induced stall I gather can happen if crew ignore POM and select flaps at hold or any low airspeed during icing. This results in ice formation aft of the pneumatic de-ice boots. Horizontal stabilizer has boots as well. So does vertical. I think icing of elevators to the point of jamming is possible but only if crew insist on staying in severe icing a long time. Smashing the elevator controls I think would look like this crash. I can say if I was crew and that happened, I tell everyone to run forward. Yes I know that's silly.

 

[SaparotRob]

A recent structure repair is very interesting. Hopefully the wreckage didn't burn up evidence. A stuck horizontal stabilizer or elevator would look like the video I expect.
Ice induced stall I gather can happen if crew ignore POM and select flaps at hold or any low airspeed during icing. This results in ice formation aft of the pneumatic de-ice boots. Horizontal stabilizer has boots as well. So does vertical. I think icing of elevators to the point of jamming is possible but only if crew insist on staying in severe icing a long time. Smashing the elevator controls I think would look like this crash. I can say if I was crew and that happened, I tell everyone to run forward. Yes I know that's silly.

I have no problem running in panic if that's what it takes.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

A recent structure repair is very interesting. Hopefully the wreckage didn't burn up evidence. A stuck horizontal stabilizer or elevator would look like the video I expect.
Ice induced stall I gather can happen if crew ignore POM and select flaps at hold or any low airspeed during icing. This results in ice formation aft of the pneumatic de-ice boots. Horizontal stabilizer has boots as well. So does vertical. I think icing of elevators to the point of jamming is possible but only if crew insist on staying in severe icing a long time. Smashing the elevator controls I think would look like this crash. I can say if I was crew and that happened, I tell everyone to run forward. Yes I know that's silly.

A horizontal stab or elevator is not likely to cause it to not have forward airspeed. This looks more like a stall induced spin, hence why I lean toward icing. Again just speculation.

An elevator is not likely to get stuck because of ice. Moving the flight controls will break the ice up in a similar fashion that a pneumatic icing boot will. Icing will cause a stall when the surface of the wing or control surface is changed because of the ice. In some flight conditions it can be as little as trace ice.

Telling people to run forward is not likely to do much.

1. They won't be able to. The centrifugal forces will likely make it highly unlikely.

2. You need to do more than simply nose it over for airspeed. You need to actually reduce speed, put ailerons to neutral, rudder opposite the spin, and elevators forward.

 

[pb43]

This event now speculated as an icing related LOC, which is plausible. IMO, certification of all pax aircraft should require demonstrated ability to recover from all flight conditions such as Icing, Stall, Spin, etc. Furthermore, TP aircraft seem to dice with lethal icing on a daily basis, so their ability to avoid or cope with this problem should be improved beyond the present certification requirements, or do we just accept the regular TP fatal accidents as a price to pay?

Eng

The ATR has known issues with icing and the operating manuals reflect this. Stay within the limits in the operating manuals and the dangers are minimised.