B-17 Dead Man’s Hand, 4-231188

[BrownAW]

B-17G 4-231188, 447 BG, 709 BS based at Rattlesden, Suffolk. The "Dead Man's Hand" a 111 mission "Century" A/C. Shot down by a ME 262 on 4/19/45. Airplane was bombing Pirna near Dresden, Germany. The Crew bailed out and the co-pilot was not heard from afterwards, Lt Harold Cramer, My uncle Lt. R F Glazener was the a/c pilot. The other crew members survived

look at link www.leteckabadate.c/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/107/ ,

some of the identifiable remains of this a/c are at that Czech Museum. Part of the plane also landed in Germany as it was on the border there near Kalek okr. Chomutov, at the Czech Republic/ German border. More info and pictures Also
this will probably open in Czech language but google will translate for you

 

[Wurger]

the source: 42-31188 / Dead Man's Hand | B-17 Bomber Flying Fortress – The Queen Of The Skies

 

[Snautzer01]

42-31188 | American Air Museum

www.americanairmuseum.com

 

[Snautzer01]

42-31188 / Dead Man’s Hand | B-17 Bomber Flying Fortress – The Queen Of The Skies

B-17 #42-31188 / Dead Man’s Hand: Delivered Cheyenne 30/9/43; Harvard 16/10/43; Assigned: 709BS/447BG Rattlesden 21/11/43; MIA Pirna (111m)19/4/45 Pilot: Bob Glazener, Ray Fortier, Ernie Purcifull, Seb Bucceri, Hobart Jarvis, Theo Ciemier, no wg ‘, Jim Burton (7POW); Harry Cramer (KIA); jet...

b17flyingfortress.de

More precise information as to Lt. Cramer's whereabouts at the time of his death may be obtained from the knowledge of my position at the time. Since at the time, Chemnitz, Germany constituted the front lines, the entire crew bailed out between that city and Frieburg. I myself, since I was never taken prisoner, was hidden by German civilians in the little village of Haselbach, about 40 miles from Chemnitz. Lt. Cramer, then, would have bailed out nearer to that city, perhaps 15-20 miles due East.


I believe it is logical to assume that Lt. Cramer was killed by civilians, since our flight engineer was rather badly beaten up by them. Even in the very small village where I was hidden, persons were pointed out to me who had even gone in search of allied airmen for the explicit purpose of killing them.


Raymond E. Fortier
Navigator, B-17 #42-31188

---

At 5050N – 1335 E – 1225 hours at 19000 feet just after rally point 2 Me 262's attacked the formation. They hit the high squadron only and made one attack. Came in from 7 o'clock – a little high and hit #3 man in the high squadron, aircraft 188 #1 engine caught on fire and crews report parts of engine or wing disinterating. Aircraft 188 went down at once – but apparently under control and crews report 3 chutes out and what they believed to be an attempt to make crash landing behind friendly lines.


Source: MACR 14180

Position	Rank	Name	Status	Note
P	1LT	Robert F. Glazener	POW	-
CP	2LT	Harold Cramer	KIA	-
NAV	F/O	Raymond E. Fortier	POW	-
ENG/TT	SGT	Sebastian Bucceri	POW	-
RO	SGT	Hobart A. Jarvis	POW	-
BT	SGT	Theodore S. Ciemier	POW	-
TG	SGT	James W. Burton	POW	-
TOG	SGT	Ernest L. Purcifull	POW

 

[BrownAW]

Letecká badatelna

www.leteckabadatelna.cz

I correct the link for the info on 4-231188 as I hand copied it. I opened it to copy the correct link and this goes to the a/c.
Sorry about this
A Wayne

 

[Snautzer01]

Letecká badatelna

www.leteckabadatelna.cz

I correct the link for the info on 4-231188 as I hand copied it. I opened it to copy the correct link and this goes to the a/c.
Sorry about this
A Wayne

Hi Wayne, The nr is 42-31188.

 

[BrownAW]

Thanks for the reply. I know the 42 is the year of manufacturing but I wrote it that way because pictures show 231188 on the tail.
Did you try the corrected hot-link to the Czech site ?

A Wayne

 

[manta22]

For those who may not be familiar with the term "Dead Man's Hand", it refers to the cards that frontier lawman "Wild Bill" Hickok was holding in a poker game when he was shot from behind by "Black Jack" Ketcham in Deadwood, South Dakota. He was holding Aces and Eights.

 

[BrownAW]

An Item I need some help with is the decorations for my uncle
Lt Robert F Glazener. The Only one I know for sure is the Purple Heart. My only photo of him is B/W and small. Appears to have 5 over left pocket and I think one is a Air Medal w/3 clusters. Also a ribbon over his right pocket. I have been trying for nearly 1 year to find out through govt. channels but seems like an impossible task. He has a living son but he only knows of the PH. I do have his service # and all of his unit info.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
A Wayne

 

[Snautzer01]

An Item I need some help with is the decorations for my uncle
Lt Robert F Glazener. The Only one I know for sure is the Purple Heart. My only photo of him is B/W and small. Appears to have 5 over left pocket and I think one is a Air Medal w/3 clusters. Also a ribbon over his right pocket. I have been trying for nearly 1 year to find out through govt. channels but seems like an impossible task. He has a living son but he only knows of the PH. I do have his service # and all of his unit info.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
A Wayne

Try fold3.com website.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

For those who may not be familiar with the term "Dead Man's Hand", it refers to the cards that frontier lawman "Wild Bill" Hickok was holding in a poker game when he was shot from behind by "Black Jack" Ketcham in Deadwood, South Dakota. He was holding Aces and Eights.

It was part of the logo of the last band I played in in SoCal, Blues Bullet.

 

[manta22]

Just a random post....

 

[BrownAW]

?
thanks