Best ISA's?

[schwarzpanzer]

In your opinion, what was the best Infantry Small Arm in it's class?

Mine:

Handgun

1st Colt 1911A1 (Browning HP close 2nd)

SMG

Thompson M1928A1

Assault Rifle

STG44

Rifle

SMLE

LMG/MMG

MG42

HMG

DShk

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I like the STG44, K98 Mauser, and the M1 Gerand

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Why the Garand?

The G41 mit Schalldamfer is 8)

Do you know of the Fedorov Avtomat and PPK44 DerAdler?

- Interesting WW1/WW2 weapons.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just like the M-1 Gerand. Personally I like the K98 Mauser better than the Garand but the Garand sort of set the tone for what that kind of rifle should be like.

I have heard of the PPK44 I think.

 

[plan_D]

I like the K98 it's got a great effective range and accuracy. It's also got decent stopping power. The M1 Garand was effective, eight rounds at semi-automatic fire. It was more advanced than the German designs when it came about. In fact, the Germans struggled to match it.

Obviously the StG.44 was the best assault rifle. It was the only one. And the actual name "Assault Rifle" comes from that rifle.

My favourite LMG would be the Bren. It was the most accurate of the war and my Grandad used it in Burma when he was a Blitzer.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I like the K98 it's got a great effective range and accuracy. It's also got decent stopping power. The M1 Garand was effective, eight rounds at semi-automatic fire. It was more advanced than the German designs when it came about. In fact, the Germans struggled to match it.

And that is why I like both of them.

 

[Glider]

For me the choices would be

Handgun
Colt 1911, good hitting power although a touch to powerful for some

SMG
MP40, light, reliable and controlable

Assult Rifle
STG 44 Nothing to touch it anywhere

Rifle
M1 Carbine. Large capacity, a good rate of fire and it had few of the tactical disadvantages of the Garrand which would be my second choice. Lacked range but OK up to 300 meters which was enough for most soldiers.

Sniper Rifle
Lee Enfield Mk 4 Sniper. Accuracy, reliability, range scope that came with it.

LMG
Bren, portability with firepower, accuracy and reliability.

GPMG
MG42 need I say anything

HMG
Vickers. Utterly reliable and accurate

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Obviously the StG.44 was the best assault rifle. It was the only one.

I dunno, I'm sure not all Fedorovs were retired?

In fact, the Germans struggled to match it.

I reckon the G43 was superior.

I'd rather have the Tommy than the M1 Carbine and MP40 Glider.

The Vickers was great, but not upto the DShK IMHO.

The PPK44 is the Kalashnikov SMG, love that mechanism!

- I wonder if any were used?

 

[plan_D]

The Carbine isn't a SMG so why are you saying you'd rather have a Thompson? The G43 was designed to defeat the M1 Garand which had been around for years. It was a revolution in wartime weaponary.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

The Carbine isn't a SMG so why are you saying you'd rather have a Thompson?

I take it you've never seen its ammo?

Well, its a pistol bullet! A greatcoat is defense @ 50m - proven!

The G43 was designed to defeat the M1 Garand which had been around for years. It was a revolution in wartime weaponary.

Actually it was an Amalgam of the G41 and Tokarev rifles, the Germans had battalions with SLR's at the turn of the Century.

The Garand wasn't bad, but not revolutionary, I'd rather have an SMLE personally.

 

[plan_D]

How can you compare the Carbine to the Thompson, the Carbine is not a SMG - the Thompson is. You made sure you equalled them out in your first post among catergories, so why mix the Carbine with the Thompson now?

The Thompson is .45 cal - that's a "pistol bullet". The Carbine is 5.56mm, which isn't a "pistol bullet".

The self-loading rifles were prone to jamming on most occasions. The Garand was much more reliable, and the G41 was poor.

 

[Glider]

The Thompson was hard to control with a definate swing. The SMLE was the best bolt action rifle but the Semi Automatic was a massive improvement for combat. In a hand to hand situation the bolt action was not viable, you had one shot and then the only real alternative was to hit them with it. So good as it is, I wouldn't have gone for the SMLE.
I prefer the carbine for its magazine capacity and the lack of combat limitations over the M1.

I think all SMG's had pistol bullets, its just that the MP40 was reliable and for an SMG accurate.

The only one I questioned was the 1911. In combat the most important thing is that when you pull the trigger you need to know that it will go bang, and something nasty comes out of the business end. For this I almost chose a revolver over the Colt 1911, but the extra capacity won me over.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

The Carbine is 5.56mm, which isn't a "pistol bullet".

It was actually 7.62mm, maybe you're thinking of the Ruger Mini-14?

Here is info and a pic of the bullet next to a 5.56 round:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm

It was worse than a .45 ACP IMHO, but had its uses (like the Colt M4A1/Commando, only worse)

Yes, the Garand was reliable, I'll give it that.

The Thompson was hard to control with a definate swing.

Its not that bad accuracy-wise, heavy and noisy though...

The SMLE was the best bolt action rifle but the Semi Automatic was a massive improvement for combat.

The 'mad minute' gave it a higher RoF than the Garand! 8)

In a hand to hand situation the bolt action was not viable, you had one shot and then the only real alternative was to hit them with it.

Or give them 18 inches of steel!

I prefer the carbine for its magazine capacity and the lack of combat limitations over the M1.

Thats partly why I like the M1928A1 over the M1A1 'Tommy'.

I think all SMG's had pistol bullets

Your absolutely right, the M1 Carbine, Mauser Schnellfeur and modern Colt M4A1/Commando are debatable though...

the MP40 was reliable and for an SMG accurate.

Yes, but the PPSh41 beats it on those points, the Tommy matches it. I wouldn't say it was that accurate IMHO, in fact only really the Sten was worse?

For this I almost chose a revolver over the Colt 1911, but the extra capacity won me over.

Yes, good point, but the Colt is built like an AK-47, it will work every time!

Also, save for WW1 Webleys Chinese Schnellfeurs, it was the most powerful sidearm and those 2 weren't that reliable.

Not too accurate or comfortable, but that didn't matter point-blank!

It can jump out your hand or injure it though.

 

[plan_D]

The M1 Carbine was not a SMG. It had no automatic fire capability! The PPSh41 wasn't as accurate as the MP40, the MP40 had little barrel lift, even in sustained fire. In fact, the only problem with the MP40 was over-heating the barrel.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

The M1 Carbine was not a SMG. It had no automatic fire capability!

Funnily enough a few semi-Auto's are considered SMG's , if it helps, it confuses me too!

The PPSh41 wasn't as accurate as the MP40, the MP40 had little barrel lift, even in sustained fire.

No it wasn't as good as legend makes out, it was fairly unreliable and innacurate unlike in Hollywood, dual-wielding was also a no-no!

I'm probably making it out worse than it was, like the Garand; good - but not great.

Another example of this is the Luger P08, why the myths??

You're right, can burn your hands on the bugger! (as you can with the Stg44) still in use in Crete I think!

 

[plan_D]

What are these semi-automatics that are SMGs?

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Mauser 'Bolo', Luger Artillery, Beretta M93R and HK53/G36 Kommando etc.

Though it's no bother to me if you say pistol or rifle, you'd still be right(ish). Even a pistol is a rifle!

BTW: There is even a Colt (M16/AR-15) Pistol - as in handgun!

 

[plan_D]

What are you going on about? SMG means sub-machine gun, it has to automatic. The Bolo was a pistol, the G36 is an assault rifle, the Beretta M93R is a pistol.

None of which were SMGs. As well as the M1 Carbine not being a SMG. The M1 Carbine is a self-loading rifle.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah he is confusing me now too.

 

[Glider]

As the one who mentioned the M1 Carbine, I should point out that I treated it as a rifle in my list. Plan D is correct, as far as WW2 is concerned, an SMG is an automatic weapon with a pistol based round.

I suggest that we stick to WW2 weapons for this thread.