Best Nightfighter of WW2

Erich · Jul 9, 2004

ok almost done. Huckebein what delays when Mossies were about.... ? maybe this is in regard to landing ? My understanding is that this was so as it was frustrating for the pilots to drop into the landing mode when the Mossies scored over the airfields. Evenn so other couter measures were evolved like increase in Fla positions as the Mossies engine noise revealed. Even a/c armament was removed to makeshift devices to shoot back at the unknown. Also the German ac/ would order the landing lights to go blackout so it then depended on the pilots skill to land dead stick in the black.........

your quote about the German's never flew when Mossies were present ? what are you talking about, as I never said jack diddly about this. Of course they did the Germans full knowing that their were Mossie nf escorts with the Lancs and Halibags, also what is your purpose of stating take yourself away from the forum where (real life) discussion on WW 2 is preferred.

Do you have any clue what you just stated ? Go through this site and you can visually attest to the silliness of many postings on what-if's and the spam that goes on here. give me a break man. I've tried my best here to bring real life scenarios and interviews and my shared data base (gosh why do I do this ?) to you guys..........I'm now going to have to think this seriously through now whether to stay on or not.

suggest you go to the LEMB board or the Night fighter forum to find out if I am full of BS like you say I am. Maybe check my moderator statements at Marcus Wendals axis forums site or maybe my moderator postings on www.militariacollecting.com as well.

I wish you all well.............

v/r

der Alt ~

Erich · Jul 9, 2004

ah a response ! yes every Mossie attacked by Kommando Welter was shot down. Not one Moosie that was attacked got away. It is in the log-books that we have copies of straight from Germany as well as pilot interviews and we have been able to check the RAF losses in Pro and elsewhere to prove it. Both the nf versions and the LNsF bombers were shot down. the LNSF attacked or made their runs on Berlain in one of 6 routes and these were all known to the Luftwaffe crews..............yes more research is needed, as we are not quite finsihed yet with the 750 pages collected so far.

Erich · Jul 9, 2004

last call I hope on this. Let me make myself very clear on this. The Me 262A-1a's of the Kommando when flown at night could fire eiother two or four 3cm weapons. It was found that while intercepting a Mossie that few M rounds were needed as so explosive they were nearly every victory over a Mossie resulted in the Me 262 flying through debris. this of course pissed off Kurt Welter as he flet his pilots were not taking a more angled line to the rear of the RAF bomber and closing in too fast. The 3cm Mk 108 was a short range weapon and the closing jet to Mossie was so fast that the jet pilot had to reduce speed to accept the challenge of placing a few rounds to the Mosquito or he would overshoot. also since the me 262 did not have radar in the single seater versions a postivie ID had to be done before opening up fire. this was radioed to the ground station Döberitz close to Berlin as this station was always associated with 10./NJG 11. the station was powerful enough that it could track single Mossies if need be that had left Berlin after bombing as many times they got seperated from the Mossie mainstream back to England...........

something new eh ?

E ~

Huckebein · Jul 9, 2004

Well in the absence of actual hard evidence to the contrary I'll have to take your word on that, even though it does seem very unlikely. As for my quote regarding the Germans never flying, you said that 'the Germans still flew when Mossies were about', whereas I had merely stated that te Mosquitoes caused delays, and nothing about whether or not operations continued.

Oh, and I didn't mean any offense with that comment - I was frustrated, sorry.

Erich · Jul 9, 2004

friend, the only hard eveidence I can give you is what will be in my book. Even the new book by martin Bowman through Pen/Sword publications called Mosquitopanic will not cover all the missions on the end of the Luftwaffe. martin is obviously much more well known than I as a publisher but I wonder if he has soley concerned himslef with Mossie/luftwaffe missions for the past 35 years as I ? most probably not. i do know for a fact that he has totally left out the prime anti-Moskito stffel 10.(N)/Jg 300 oput of his book because he knows nothing about it and has not inteview the veterans as we have. there is probably room on this thread for me to add another 7 pages of full on text but I want everyone to enjoy our work. go to www.eagle-editions.com
from the site find the books lin. go here and find the text on the 2 volumes of JG 300. My English friend neil page translated them for the Crandall's. i mention these two books because it will be s super lead in towards our book on the Moskito-jagd whether they the Crandall's and everyone know it or not. also there are two other friend/authors on my little kwest of adventure.

Horrido !

Huckebein · Jul 9, 2004

Very nice - I will take a look. 8)

MP-Willow · Jul 12, 2004

Eric, thanks for the information. You as always are educating me on NFs. I have a question about the Me 262A-1 as a night fighter. You said that it was very good and from what I have found I will agree. What I want to ask is the time it took to train on the jet, for new pilots and the aces transfering?

Erich · Jul 12, 2004

actually this will be covered in some length in our book. When I visited Chino arifield in October some years ago and after the show Luftwaffe vet hans Busch who flew a 262 in KG 51 in 1945 went through a flight check all in Deutsch before he "would take off" It was something like 7-8 minutes long although I am sure he was taking his time with us Americans.........

Kurt Welter in his Kommando would take a real breif time with the pilots and then sit on the wing yelling instructions as the new pilot would casually wander along the tarmac, Welter jumping off as the jet attained some speed. A scary propostion for both Kommandeur and of course pilot with Welter watching closely the whole scenario and giving his critique when the pilot landed. A little bizaree don;t you think ?

Donnervogel · Jul 12, 2004

have you already heard something of the german nightfighter
Heinkel 219 Uhu?

have you heard something of the german nightfighter Heinkel 219 Uhu? This aircraft had shot 4 Lancasters in one night!

Erich · Jul 12, 2004

go back and read all the pages in this thread........The UHU was a dog !

my opinion which I know is not agreed by many of the fine members of this board. Ah 4 Lancs in one night is nothing.

How about Martin Becker and crew shooting down 9 Lanc's and a B-17 with their Ju 88G-6 in March of 1945 ! I have the fuyll interview..........

Grüß

Erich ♪

plan_D · Jul 12, 2004

He did that in the whole month of March or just in one night/day. I mean that amount of bombers on one ammo load, that's some good going.

Erich · Jul 12, 2004

thought that might get someone to respond

On the Night of march 14/15, 1945 Martin and his three man crew successfully penetrated the bomber stream. The Bordfünker karl Johannsen closed in on the heaviest amount of window and there they were. they readioed in other NJg 6 a/c to no avial and went on a Frei-jagd and Martin shot down 6 lancasters with his forward firing 2cm weapons. the Ju 88G-6 was not equipped with Schräge Musik 2cm weapons. As martin ran out of ammo the Bordfünker took over the rear gunners position annd shot down 1 lanc with the rearward 13mm mg 131 and then a radio fire ensued causing the other two members of the crew to put it out, Karl then shot down another Lanc and finally a B-17 from the RAF sepcial 100th group with the 13mm weapon. An incredible night it was,

Another crew from 5./NJG 2 shot down 8 RAF a/c with their Ju 88G-6 using SM weapons and forward 2cm weapons. The rear gunner shot down 1 lanc with his 13mm fire though the pilot Erich Jung was a bit hesistant. This was also in march the 16/17th 1945 to be exact. have the full story on this incident as well as a full on story of the B-17 downing by one of the RAF crewmen........

E ~

Erich · Jul 12, 2004

a couple more examples used with SM and forward 2cm weapons. Both pilots/crews flying Ju 88G-6's.

Heinz Rökker of 2./NJG 2 got claims for 6 lancasters on the night of February 21, 1945

Gerhard Raht of I./NJG 2 got claims for 5 RAF 4-eninge bombers on the night of 15 March 1945. Evidetnly a dark night the RAF bombers could not be postively ID'd

Erich ▼

plan_D · Jul 12, 2004

He must have been a brilliant shot, I mean the Lancaster and B-17 could take some damage. Either the Ju-88 had a large ammo count or he was supernaturally good.
I'm getting your book, just for that story.

Lightning Guy · Jul 12, 2004

Shnaufer once downed 9 in a single 24hr period in his Bf-110. He shot down 2 after midnight in the early hours of Feb. 21, 1945. He returned to base, rested, took off and shot down a further 7 before midnight came around again.

Erich · Jul 12, 2004

yes he did but I was posting the case when the crews were just on one mission, non-stop. there were others too that scored as many as four on many an occassion. Quite a feat.

E ♪

plan_D · Jul 13, 2004

What was the ammo count on the Bf-110. I mean, I feel really stupid for saying this but on Sturmovik (about as real as it'll get, for me) I managed to down four He-111s with a Lagg-3 but I still had to ram the fourth to bring it down. I got home alright but they were only twin engined, how did they down four-engined ones and more of!?

dead parrot · Jul 13, 2004

Attacking from the front, assuming your aim is good enough, requires a lot less ammunition I would imagine. Hitting the front of the engines works a lot better than the back of them.

Spealing of Il-2, I once blew the wing off a B-17 with about 3 bullets from a Hurricane, in a lucky shot from the front... Whether this has anything to do with real world, I have no idea...

Erich · Jul 13, 2004

let's not stray too off topic shall we ? remember nf's not what-if's

a Fantasy video game is nothing like the real world. The Luftwaffe frontal attacks were aimed at the cockpit and because of the possibility of collisions which there were some, the attacks were moved to the sides and especially the rear by the summer of 1944 where only the tail gunner had to be contended with until the German a/c had run through the bomber stream then it would take the full force of the other bombers fire. But in the usual case after going past 1-2 other bombers the German a/c would bank either down and away or up to the right or left to get out of harms way. A single 109 or Fw going through a bomber pulk was usually suicidal..........

dead parrot · Jul 13, 2004

Erich said:
let's not stray too off topic shall we ? remember nf's not what-if's

a Fantasy video game is nothing like the real world. The Luftwaffe frontal attacks were aimed at the cockpit and because of the possibility of collisions which there were some, the attacks were moved to the sides and especially the rear by the summer of 1944 where only the tail gunner had to be contended with...(snip)

I really don't know much about the tactics, but coming from the rear, wouldn't the attacker also come under ventral and/or dorsal turret fire, depending on his angle of attack? I understand that bombers were usually attacked from the rear not because it was safer, but because the attacker had a lot longer to line up a shot. If a plane is unprotected in the rear, an attacker can sit there and fire away until his ammo runs out. So bomber builders would be interested in protecting the rear with armaments and armor, non?

This was the point I was speculatively making about attacking from the front. Less guns and less armor there, and therefore, perhaps, less bullets needed for a kill?? And so 10 bombers in one ammo load...

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