BF 109 Dive Rate

[Catch22]

Hello everyone!

My brother and I have had a long running argument about the Bf 109's dive rate. He is convinced that it could outdive pretty much any other single engined fighter, but he doesn't know where he heard it or anything. I have heard the same thing, but I don't think it would be able to outdive a much heavier plane like the P-47 or the F4U. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[drgondog]

Hello everyone!

My brother and I have had a long running argument about the Bf 109's dive rate. He is convinced that it could outdive pretty much any other single engined fighter, but he doesn't know where he heard it or anything. I have heard the same thing, but I don't think it would be able to outdive a much heavier plane like the P-47 or the F4U. Can anyone enlighten me?

The critical dive speed that I saw in the past was .77 Mach. I do not know which model that represents and I do not have a link. Kurfurst or Soren can probably put their fingers on it quickly.

Heavy isn't the issue, drag rise and critical mach number is the issue.

 

[Catch22]

Ok, thanks for the quick answer. I really don't know a whole lot of the science behind a lot of this stuff, so that's why I assumed the weight would be a major factor, but now I know it isn't! My argument my be in trouble.

 

[Daviducus2]

Gunther Rall:

Anyway, I was chased by P-47. I knew exactly that in a dive P-47 is much faster than 109. And the P-47 has a much higher structural strength. They can go up to 1400 kilometers per hour. The 109, if you go to 1000, pull it up, you risk that the wings come off.

virtualpilots.fi: WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html

 

[Dark Matter]

If you went into a dive in a Bf-109 above the G-10 version it had very poor elavater control.

I would never recomend diving unless its a shallow dive in the Bf-109.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Gunther Rall:

Anyway, I was chased by P-47. I knew exactly that in a dive P-47 is much faster than 109. And the P-47 has a much higher structural strength. They can go up to 1400 kilometers per hour. The 109, if you go to 1000, pull it up, you risk that the wings come off.

virtualpilots.fi: WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html

There is something not right about that statement of his.

1400 kmh = 870 mph (no P-47 is going to go that fast even in a dive....)

1000 kmh = 621 mph (no Bf 109 or P-47 is going to go that fast in a dive...)

I am sure the P-47 could out dive the Bf 109, but Rall was certainly exaggerating those numbers. From my understanding the P-47 was the fastest diving aircraft and could reach speeds of 550 mph in a dive.

I think that was Rall said was to liven up the story and put some humor in it. I am sure if you actually listen to the tapes you will hear a chuckle from him as he speaks. Sort of like the "No ****, there I was stories."

 

[Dark Matter]

Good point Adler, I didn't see that.

 

[davebender]

If you went into a dive in a Bf-109 above the G-10 version it had very poor elavater control.

Poor elevator control at what speed?

 

[Daviducus2]

Yes, I think Rall's statement can fairly be taken to indicate that in his opinion, which was informed by a great deal of first hand experience on this very subject, the P-47 was not at risk of losing its 109 prey if it chose to make a run for the deck.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes, I think Rall's statement can fairly be taken to indicate that in his opinion, which was informed by a great deal of first hand experience on this very subject, the P-47 was not at risk of losing its 109 prey if it chose to make a run for the deck.

Exactly...

 

[Dark Matter]

Poor elevator control at what speed?

At above 550 kph.

 

[Dark Matter]

Actualy I ment 650 kph.

 

[davebender]

That more or less squares with accounts I have read. How does it compare with the contenporary Spitfire, P-38, P-47 and P-51 fighter aircraft? Everyone knows the massive P-47 has a very high sustained dive speed. But how fast can it dive and still respond well to the controls?

 

[Dark Matter]

Its alot faster then most planes.

Maybe I did mean 550 kph after all.

The P-47 is a great diver, it has good high speed control from all the forms I read.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Actualy I ment 650 kph.

Please use the edit button next time...

 

[Glider]

The Me 109 G was red lined at 466mph whereas the Spit IX was redlined at around 455mph so the difference wasn't great but the 109 in a dive accelerated faster so had a tactical advantage greater than the actual numbers indicated. Its a short term gain as Terra Ferma will be reached sooner or later.

However the P51 and P47 were redlined at speeds in excess of 500 mph so the 109 was at a significant disadvantage when trying to dive away.

I am trying to dig out the exact numbers but this is a rough guide

 

[Catch22]

Thanks for all of the answers guys, this is really helpful.

 

[Glider]

I believe that the P51D was redlined at 505 mph and the P47D limited to 520 mph.

 

[davebender]

P51D was redlined at 505 mph and the P47D limited to 520 mph

If you are flying 400 mph in level flight how long does it take to reach 500+ mph in a dive with a WWII era fighter aircraft?

 

[Glider]

You may as well ask how long is a piece of string