Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[Colin1]

who is hiding? If the pilot doesn't know who hit him how does anyone else. Douglas Bader said he was shot down by a german it was almost certainly another Spitfire......he peeled off a flight of Bf109s and was shot...the other Spitfire pilot seeing a flight of 109s took out the last one assuming it was also a 109 ......the pilot claimed a 109 except the Luftwaffe didn't lose one in that area that day
I suspect you have missed my point. In any other context, you would be correct but air combat history was not written off the backs of pilots who stated simply "I got hit - sorry, never saw the guy". It is the intelligence gleaned from surviving pilots combat reports that forms history and alot of it is statistical; you would find it most useful in corroborating statements and even in tempering some of the statements you make.

I think the first top line fighter over Berlin was the Mosquito

You inadvertently expose your lack of nous once more, for anyone else on this forum, I could have (and did) omit 'single-engined, single-seat...' If that hasn't deterred you, provide us with a detailed expose on how you think the Mosquito would have fared in the daylight bomber escort role against an as-yet undented Luftwaffe.

 

[Colin1]

Since you love stats calculate for example a big wing in the Battle of Britain 50 Hurricanes with 8 brownings engaging a similar number of Bf109s with 2 guns and 1 cannon and defensive fire from 30 bombers.
Calculate what?

Farmers put covers on their tractors as the bullets and casings still stung ...it was literally like rain..

and this was where? directly underneath the combat? Or all over SE England? Was there a probability density function of falling spent cases peaking over the capital or can we assume uniform distribution over, say, Kent? This stuff is straight out of a boys-own comic, you would NOT want to get hit on the head by a falling spent case from a cannon but you'd probably have more chance of being killed and eaten by a lion in Piccadilly Circus

 

[drgondog]

Or finding a circus in Picadilly Circus..

 

[Colin1]

Or finding a circus in Picadilly Circus..

that as well

 

[john brewer]

I don't know what point you're making here

please do some research.. the men equipment and munitions required to provide air defence for the ruhrgebeit berlin munich and all other centres was equivalent to another front, it would be in interesting question as to who used most explosives the allies dropping them or the germans firing them in the air. A large part of gun manufacture was used to defend the homeland rather than fighting on east or west.

This discussion is dissapearing up its own behind.....I must admit I dont see any connection between a sopwith camel and the russians....I do see a connection between and advanced jet ( eurofighter) and a ww1 plane (camel) similarly the me262 was advanced for its day but against huge numbers of mustangs (at high altitude) and tempests thunderbolts etc etc at low altitude it had no chance. as can be seen today in afghanistan technology can only go so far even a JSF can be taken out by a guy with a kalashnikov

 

[john brewer]

and this was where? directly underneath the combat? Or all over SE England? Was there a probability density function of falling spent cases peaking over the capital or can we assume uniform distribution over, say, Kent? This stuff is straight out of a boys-own comic, you would NOT want to get hit on the head by a falling spent case from a cannon but you'd probably have more chance of being killed and eaten by a lion in Piccadilly Circus

you are becoming tiresome. The luftwaffe when raiding london used the same route day after day, the RAF took a similar time to scramble and so interceptions occurred in roughly the same place. No one was killed or even hurt but people who got caught underneath it it was a painful if not wierd experience, they would clatter down roof tiles and ping off the pavement. The point I was making was there were literally 10s of thousands of bullets being discharged.....The idea that all the bullets fired by the RAF only hit germans and vice versa is simply laughable. If you are shooting at full deflection and a plane travelling in the opposite direction to your target crosses your arc of fire you hit it before you can stop firing (do the math target at 400yards target and friend crossing at relative speed of 700mph)

 

[drgondog]

please do some research.. the men equipment and munitions required to provide air defence for the ruhrgebeit berlin munich and all other centres was equivalent to another front, it would be in interesting question as to who used most explosives the allies dropping them or the germans firing them in the air. A large part of gun manufacture was used to defend the homeland rather than fighting on east or west.

This discussion is dissapearing up its own behind.....I must admit I dont see any connection between a sopwith camel and the russians....I do see a connection between and advanced jet ( eurofighter) and a ww1 plane (camel) similarly the me262 was advanced for its day but against huge numbers of mustangs (at high altitude) and tempests thunderbolts etc etc at low altitude it had no chance. as can be seen today in afghanistan technology can only go so far even a JSF can be taken out by a guy with a kalashnikov

Front's have a Main Line of Resistance. Flak artillary, German U-Boats, Luftwaffe Jagd Gerschwader constitutes forces deplyed - not a 'front'.

in context of high explosive (or equivalent) being equivalent to another 'Front', how would place into context the Enola Gay on August 6, 1945??

If an Me 262 flew in a straight line at 26,000 feet, heading due north at 1200 hours from Munich - how many Mustangs would it encounter? It Depends?

Yes. It depends on how many Mustangs will intersect his vector - in how many cubic miles of empty airspace - in visual range. Increase the density and place the Me 262 with a minimum 100kt/hr speed advantage onto a populated bomber stream. Will it encounter Mustangs? It 'Depends'? Many 8th AF fighter pilots failed to encounter 262's or even see them.

 

[john brewer]

and this was where? directly underneath the combat? Or all over SE England? Was there a probability density function of falling spent cases peaking over the capital or can we assume uniform distribution over, say, Kent? This stuff is straight out of a boys-own comic, you would NOT want to get hit on the head by a falling spent case from a cannon but you'd probably have more chance of being killed and eaten by a lion in Piccadilly Circus

lol @ probability density function...FYI 50 hurricanes carried 133200 bullets that is 266200 bullets and cases
300 aircraft would drop 1,500,000 bullets and cases down below in 14 seconds of firing

at the height of the battle pilots were flying 6-8 sorties per day so if you say 300 planes defending the south of england kent sussex area doing 6 sorties a day that is circa 10 million per day....and you dont believe anyone got hit on the head...now you do the math for the luftwaffe you chump

 

[steve51]

drgondog,

Thank you for that link in your post #529. It is an excellent discussion of friendly fire incidents.

 

[john brewer]

Front's have a Main Line of Resistance. Flak artillary, German U-Boats, Luftwaffe Jagd Gerschwader constitutes forces deplyed - not a 'front'.

in context of high explosive (or equivalent) being equivalent to another 'Front', how would place into context the Enola Gay on August 6, 1945??

If an Me 262 flew in a straight line at 26,000 feet, heading due north at 1200 hours from Munich - how many Mustangs would it encounter? It Depends?

Yes. It depends on how many Mustangs will intersect his vector - in how many cubic miles of empty airspace - in visual range. Increase the density and place the Me 262 with a minimum 100kt/hr speed advantage onto a populated bomber stream. Will it encounter Mustangs? It 'Depends'? Many 8th AF fighter pilots failed to encounter 262's or even see them.

you are describing a front in the first world war not the second. The Atlantic war was a front which we had to control but a submarine could sink a ship anywhere from Liverpool to the USA coast, similarly German airspace was a front if the germans didnt control it their industry was crippled and cities destroyed.


The quote I made about 37 me 262 attacking an american formation clearly states that 37 was the largest group they had assembled so far....hardly surprising then that many escorts didnt see one ....eh bonny lard? Dunno what the stuff about enola gay or vectors is about...have you been drinking?

 

[Colin1]

lol @ probability density function...
You have a weird sense of humour

FYI 50 hurricanes carried 133200 bullets that is 266200 bullets and cases
Thanks, I didn't know that

300 aircraft would drop 1,500,000 bullets and cases down below in 14 seconds of firing
Hmm your maths breaks down somewhere but assuming of course that no German aircraft were shot down during the Battle of Britain you could be on to something...

at the height of the battle pilots were flying 6-8 sorties per day so if you say 300 planes defending SE England doing 6 sorties a day that is circa 10 million per day....and you don't believe anyone got hit on the head...
Don't recall making that claim though I did deride the odds..

now you do the math for the Luftwaffe you chump

Abuse, the last bastion of the defeated. The maths is so much more fun when you do it

 

[Colin1]

...eh bonny lard? Dunno what the stuff about Enola Gay or vectors is about...have you been drinking?

I want a pet john brewer
I'll buy him a cage, some bedding and an exercise wheel
He'll have his own box of straw to hibernate in and an unlimited supply of peanuts to store in his cheeks
I'll put him on the coffee table when I've got friends round and when they ask "What is it?" I can say "It's a john brewer"

 

[Milosh]

lol @ probability density function...FYI 50 hurricanes carried 133200 bullets that is 266200 bullets and cases 300 aircraft would drop 1,500,000 bullets and cases down below in 14 seconds of firing

at the height of the battle pilots were flying 6-8 sorties per day so if you say 300 planes defending the south of england kent sussex area doing 6 sorties a day that is circa 10 million per day....and you dont believe anyone got hit on the head...now you do the math for the luftwaffe you chump

6-8 sorties per day???

Got proof!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

This is the final warning to all parties involved. Do not let this debate get out of hand!

 

[john brewer]

You inadvertently expose your lack of nous once more, for anyone else on this forum, I could have (and did) omit 'single-engined, single-seat...' If that hasn't deterred you, provide us with a detailed expose on how you think the Mosquito would have fared in the daylight bomber escort role against an as-yet undented Luftwaffe.

Firstly I was being entirely tongue in cheek when mentioning the mosquito...they were bombers not the fighter variant but they did get under Goerings skin

OK here goes
All major protagonists in WW2 were barking up completely the wrong tree.

The conventional wisdom is that populations could easily be bombed into submission with the exception of Japan this has never been any where near being proved Neither Britain Germany Japan Italy in WW2 or the vietnamese koreans after...it was a theory that simply didnt work.

Similarly the idea that precision daylight bombing could surgically remove important industries no heavy bomber managed the precision required in a combat situation. smart bombs can do it today but it still doesnt win the war

The heavy bombers used by the allies could not defend themselves during the day or hit anything but a city at night. The theory that heavily armed bombers could defend themselves and make it to the target cost thousands of lives and merely meant that for example a B17 on a long mission carried so much fuel and armament that its bomb load was little more than a mosquito and they crawled to the target.

I read in one article on the Mosquito that after the Mosquito went into service the RAF never placed one more defensive gun on any aircraft, like a turreted fighter (BP Defiant) it was a theory that didnt work.

All examination of bombs dropped against bombs on target shows the Mosquito knocked all others into a cocked hat on any basis you care to measure (cost losses accuracy). If the philosophy had been different and a mosquito or similar with griffon engines using speed not guns as a defence things may have been different. Mosquitos (bomber variant) were much easier to escort because they were so much faster although mosquitos were able to drop bombs in daylight without escort with the luftwaffe at full strength using sppeed and surprise.



there how was that?


BTW Japan did surrender but that required 2 nuclear bombs....having been to the peace park at Hiroshima its a bad way to win a conflict

 

[john brewer]

6-8 sorties per day???

Got proof!

Milosh you obviously havnt read much so instead of so instead of posting "got proof" go read a book....june july in UK has daylight hours of 4AM to 9.30PM and BTW many german fighters were doing the same

 

[pbfoot]

Milosh you obviously havnt read much so instead of so instead of posting "got proof" go read a book....june july in UK has daylight hours of 4AM to 9.30PM and BTW many german fighters were doing the same

that means the aircraft is airborne for 8 hrs a day now if you add turn arounds of 15 - 20 minutes that means 11-12 hours , thats not even including snags

 

[john brewer]

Abuse, the last bastion of the defeated. The maths is so much more fun when you do it

sorry for rounding the numbers and not subtracting
1 bullets which hit german fighters
2 bullets which hit friendly fighters
3 bullets not fired because the guns jammed


truth is you and others thought it was silly for people to be scared irritated or annoyed about bullets and casings...when you do the numbers the number of bullets falling in a comparatively small area is staggering

 

[john brewer]

that means the aircraft is airborne for 8 hrs a day now if you add turn arounds of 15 - 20 minutes that means 11-12 hours , thats not even including snags

1 , why do you think the pilots were falling asleep as soon as they touched down? and someone here accused me of disrespecting the pilots

2 some sorties lasted minutes....squadrons were scrambled just so they wernt bombed on the ground as soon as ammunition was exhausted (14 seconds firing) that was sortie over

 

[john brewer]

I want a pet john brewer
I'll buy him a cage, some bedding and an exercise wheel
He'll have his own box of straw to hibernate in and an unlimited supply of peanuts to store in his cheeks
I'll put him on the coffee table when I've got friends round and when they ask "What is it?" I can say "It's a john brewer"

colin .........as with many forums this one has its "regs" who are invariably a pain in the ass...you are conspicuously a pain in the ass........what is this apart from juvenile abuse
I want a pet john brewer
I'll buy him a cage, some bedding and an exercise wheel
He'll have his own box of straw to hibernate in and an unlimited supply of peanuts to store in his cheeks
I'll put him on the coffee table when I've got friends round and when they ask "What is it?" I can say "It's a john brewer"[/QUOTE]

bonny lard