Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

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For those who are interested this is the actual wording from the memorandum issued by the Joint Chiefs that authorised the bombing campaign (for both the US and CW forces committed to that task). You can find it in Memorandum C.C.S. 166/1/D by the Combined Chiefs of Staff, dated 21 January 1943:

Directive to the appropriate British and U.S. Air Force Commanders to govern the operation of the British and U.S. Bomber Commands in the United Kingdom (Approved by the Combined Chiefs of Staff at their 65th meeting on January 21, 1943)
1. Your Primary object will be the progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial, and economic system, and the undermining of the morale of the German people to a point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened.
2. Within that General concept, your primary objectives, subject to the exigencies of weather and tactical feasibility, will for the present be in the following order of priority:
(a) German submarine construction yards.
(b) The German aircraft industry.
(c) Transportation.
(d) Oil plants.
(e) Other targets in enemy war industry.
The above order of priority may be varied from time to time according to developments in the strategical situation. Moreover, other objectives of great importance either from the political or military point of view must be attacked. Examples of these are:

(1) Submarine operating bases on the Biscay coast. If these can be put out of action, a great step forward will have been taken in the U-boat war which the C.C.S have agreed to be a first charge on our resources. Day and night attacks on these bases have been inaugurated and should be continued so that an assessment of their effects can be made as soon as possible. If it is found that successful results can be achieved, these attacks should continue whenever conditions are favorable for as long and as often as is necessary. These objectives have not been included in the order of priority, which coves the long term operations, particularly as the bases are not situated in Germany.
(2) Berlin, which should be attacked when the conditions are suitable for the attainment of the specially valuable results unfavorable to the moral of the enemy or favorable to that of the Russians.
3. You may also be required, at the appropriate time, to attack objectives in Northern Italy on connection with amphibious operations in the Mediterranean theater.
4. There may be certain other objectives of great but fleeting importance for the attack of which all necessary planes and preparations should be made. Of these, an example would be the important units of the German Fleet in harbor or at sea.
5. You should take every opportunity to attack Germany by day, to destroy objectives that are unsuitable for night attack, to sustain continuous pressure on German morale, to impose heavy losses on the German day fighter force, and to contain German fighter strength away from the Russian and Mediterranean theaters of war.
6. When the Allied armies reeneter the Continent, you will afford them all possible support in the manner most effective.
7. In attacking objectives in occupied territories, you will conform to such instructions as may be issued from time to time for political reasons by His Majesty's Government through the British Chiefs of Staff.



This directive known as the Casablanca directive or POINTBLANK, replaced the general directive No. 5 above, S46368 D.C.A.S, 14th February 1942 and was issued to the appropriate British and United States Air Force Commanders to govern the operations of British and U.S. Bomber Commands in the United Kingdom.

In his post war book Bomber offensive Harris mentions the Casablanca directive at the start of chapter seven "The offensive underway". In it he emphasises the "Object" paragraph of the directive issued to the RAF and mentions the "Primary" paragraph in passing. He explains that the subject of morale had been dropped (it had been emphasised in the previous general directive No. 5 (the Area Bombing Directive)) and that he was to proceed with the "general 'disorganisation' of German industry" but that some parts of that industry, such as U-Boat building, had a higher priority than others, from which he drew the conclusion that it "allowed [him] to attack any German industrial city of 100,000 inhabitants and above" and that the Ruhr remained the principal target for the RAF.]

However it is clear that even the so-called "area bombing" directive was never intended to try and achieve a total national collapse of morale. It was intended to achieve dislocation of production on a city by city basis, with the emphasis on lost morale, but failing that, by the sheer destruction of the cities themselves, and to maximise civilian casualties.
 
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Once again read the thread and make a mental note of all the incredulous posts regarding most of your claims, that's the 'we' I'm referring to. This 'crowd' you allude to, who do you think they're here to see - me or you?

Dieppe may be close to Normandy but it is...
...in the same theatre of operations

How silly of me and how remiss of the allies they should have trotted along from Normandy to relieve Dieppe since they were the same theatre of operations.
 
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Novelty had nothing to do with it, the impact of a deployed nuclear weapon had everything to do with it

You have consistently demonstrated that you are not clever enough to be this slippery, we were not debating the imminent invasion of the Japanese mainland by US ground forces

Colin that is exactly what were were debating if the Japanese didnt surrender that was the alternative

The nuclear bomb didnt bring about surrender because of the number of people killed
Oh, I think you'll find that played a BIG part in it
Why? more died with conventional raids with no surrender

I said ....The nuclear bombs brought about surrender because it was a new type of weapon
Colin said..... Novelty had nothing to do with it, the impact of a deployed nuclear weapon had everything to do with it

But colin edited my comments to suit his own ends I also said which they could not defend even the emperor wasnt safe and it proved America didnt need to invade.
Colin you are playing games with semantics and editing.......find someone else to show off to you friends with
 
How silly of me and how remiss of the allies they should have trotted along from Normandy to relieve Dieppe since they were the same theatre of operations.
Your complete lack of grasp of historical fact is now matched by your complete disregard for the sacrifice of thousands of Commonwealth troops. Who the hell do you think you are that you could make so cavalier a remark wrt the lives lost at Dieppe?

This thread just 'went hot' and I'm standing off until that particular remark is dealt with

You are a buffoon, my error has been to dignify your pathetic circus with responses
 
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I was quoting from
Douglas Bader
opens a whole new can of worms

" It is possible that Bader, in the chaos of battle, joined a flight of Me 109's (mistaking them for Spitfires) before pulling away from them once he realised his mistake."

When does possible become an absolute? In fact, he attacked the a/c you so absolutely claim he thought were Spitfires. :rolleyes:

"Bader dropped down below them and closed up before dispatching one of them with a short burst of fire from close range. He was just opening fire on a second Bf 109 when he noticed the two on his left turning towards him."
 
I ain't no math wizard but.....there's 27,878,400 sq feet in a square mile, and approx 25,000 square miles in southern England, for a bit under 700 billion square feet. 300 Hurricanes (if they all fired all their ammo, which they didn't) would produce 792,000 bullets and the same amount of cases. Say 1.5 million objects falling from the sky. (if some of those 792,000 bullets happened to get imbedded in a german aircraft we might get one big object falling from the sky, but that would complicate my calculations)
If they could manage to expend all that ammo over a single square mile, there would be one piece of debris for every 18 square feet. That's a light rain, but with a good crew of workers with rakes and shovels you could clean it up if the grass wasn't too tall.
Since the fighting was spread all over southern England, you end up with one piece of debris every 466 billion square feet.
That's a really light rain.

please read my signature quote. :)
 
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Your complete lack of grasp of historical fact is now matched by your complete disregard for the sacrifice of thousands of Commonwealth troops. Who the hell do you think you are that you could make so cavalier a remark wrt the lives lost at Dieppe?

This thread just 'went hot' and I'm standing off until that particular remark is dealt with

You are a buffoon, my error has been to dignify your pathetic circus with responses

You said Dieppe was in the same theatre of operations not me...now explain why no one went from Normandy to Dieppe.........You are the buffoon who is now demanding your mates get involved over your perceived disrespect
 
I ain't no math wizard but.....there's 27,878,400 sq feet in a square mile, and approx 25,000 square miles in southern England, for a bit under 700 billion square feet. 300 Hurricanes (if they all fired all their ammo, which they didn't) would produce 792,000 bullets and the same amount of cases. Say 1.5 million objects falling from the sky. (if some of those 792,000 bullets happened to get imbedded in a german aircraft we might get one big object falling from the sky, but that would complicate my calculations)
If they could manage to expend all that ammo over a single square mile, there would be one piece of debris for every 18 square feet. That's a light rain, but with a good crew of workers with rakes and shovels you could clean it up if the grass wasn't too tall.
Since the fighting was spread all over southern England, you end up with one piece of debris every 466 billion square feet.
That's a really light rain.

please read my signature quote. :)

you say south england is 700 billion square feet then say 1 piece of debris every 466 billion square feet
that is 2 pieces on the whole of south england (presumably the balance of the 1.5 million are embeded in the bomber you mentioned) oh and I did read your signature quote.

The fact is people were hit by falling rounds and casings and when they were it wasnt a round falling on its own.
 
You said Dieppe was in the same theatre of operations not me...now explain why no one went from Normandy to Dieppe.........You are the buffoon who is now demanding your mates get involved over your perceived disrespect

John, one warning - tone it down or I start banning people and close this thread.
 
Enough!!!!

I am tired of being ignored! I have told both sides to stand down and discuss this topic like adults! You all choose to ignore me! I am putting and to this. If you have already received a warning you will receive a nice week on the beach so that you may mature enough. Others will now receive their official warning.

Next time the stay on the beach will be much longer. Maybe you will realize I am not kidding around.

I am not an *******, but we want maturity and order here. If you can't do that, go to the Playmobil forums.

PlaymoFriends - Index

I am sure the maturity level is more for your liking.

John, one warning - tone it down or I start banning people and close this thread.

No more warnings. I am tired of being ignored...
 
Show me a squadron record that has any mention of friendly fire that is a pilot saying" I shot down one of our own" by your own standards you must be able to find 2% (good luck on that one)
As mentioned in an earlier posting the book that gives me the most information on this is the 2nd Tactical Airforce series which gives a day by day account of the 2TAF from begining to end and investigates all losses cross checking where possible from both German and Allied sources.

To repeat myself the number of blue on blue attacks were more than I expected and I should add it covers those that did not result in any losses. However the number of losses were nothing like 10% This is the basis for me challanging your presumption of 10%

FYI The nearest that I can find to this date in 1944 was on the 26th August when Sgt Menzies of 602 squadron in a Spit IX was attacked by a P47. The RAF were under orders not to defend themselves in these situations but to evade. The P47 was persistant and in the end the Spit ran out of fuel resulting in a crash landing. I went back to the beginning of August but was unable to find another case.

In the book Heaven Next Stop a German pilot shot down one of his own unit and the book decribes his anguish when he went to the senior officer to admit to what had happened.

So in brief, yes examples do exist and if you do some research instead of jumping to conclusions, you can find what you want.
 
John, one warning - tone it down or I start banning people and close this thread.


sorry i seem to have made the cardinal error of reffering to Dieppe and Normandy as different theatres which upset colin no end...he has been on my case all day...even chopping quotes of phrases not sentences to make a point now he is squealing disrespect to the fallen which is underhand in the extreme.

I have had perfectly civilised posts with others today much of some of which was informative but maybe its best I bow out now........it isnt my whole life after all
 
Should not have ignored my earlier warnings. Now you can sit on the beach for a week until you learn to act like an adult.

This goes to all members:

If you have a problem with someone, bring it to the attention of the forum staff. We will take care of it. This back and forth BS is not good for this forum and it will not be tolerated!
 
As mentioned in an earlier posting the book that gives me the most information on this is the 2nd Tactical Airforce series which gives a day by day account of the 2TAF from begining to end and investigates all losses cross checking where possible from both German and Allied sources.

To repeat myself the number of blue on blue attacks were more than I expected and I should add it covers those that did not result in any losses. However the number of losses were nothing like 10% This is the basis for me challanging your presumption of 10%

FYI The nearest that I can find to this date in 1944 was on the 26th August when Sgt Menzies of 602 squadron in a Spit IX was attacked by a P47. The RAF were under orders not to defend themselves in these situations but to evade. The P47 was persistant and in the end the Spit ran out of fuel resulting in a crash landing. I went back to the beginning of August but was unable to find another case.

In the book Heaven Next Stop a German pilot shot down one of his own unit and the book decribes his anguish when he went to the senior officer to admit to what had happened.

So in brief, yes examples do exist and if you do some research instead of jumping to conclusions, you can find what you want.

Hi Glider

This sbook about the 2 TAF sounds like an excellent reference, can you post the bibliographic details....I would like to track down a copy.
 

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