Bf 109F-2 or F-4

Jamoliva · Apr 22, 2021

Greetings all!

This was Hans Philipp's aircraft of I.JG54 at Krasnogvardeisk in early 1942. Was it a Bf 109F-2 or F-4? I am seeing and reading a lot of information suggesting both ways. Thank you for your help!

mjfur · Apr 23, 2021

Hard to tell, but I would guess the prop looks like the thin blades used on the F-2.

This photo seems to show the lack of an armoured windscreen, leaning more towards an F-2. (9th photo down)
FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: I./JG 76 Emils in the Polenfeldzug - planes and aces of JG 54 -Bf 109 aces of JG 54

Wurger · Apr 23, 2021

IMHO that's the F-2 vesion. If you enlarged the shot with its tail in you'll notice the two bars being the fuselage reinforcement. The F-4 variant didn't have the external fuselage reinforcement because it was moved to the fuselage interior, as memo serves.

Chris Simmonds · Apr 29, 2021

The Werk Nummer for this aircraft is unknown, however I see no evidence of stiffening struts under the tail plane but this is certainly an F-2

mjfur · Apr 29, 2021

Chris Simmonds said:
The Werk Nummer for this aircraft is unknown, however I see no evidence of stiffening struts under the tail plane but this is certainly an F-2

Not the struts that were used in the A-E's.

Wurger · Apr 30, 2021

Exactly just said that ...

mjfur · Apr 30, 2021

Wurger said:
Exactly just said that ...

Just clarifying for Chris in Post #4 because he mentioned struts.

Wurger · Apr 30, 2021

I see.

Chris Simmonds · Apr 30, 2021

mjfur said:
Not the struts that were used in the A-E's.

Thank you, but I did not mean A-E tail plane struts but the stiffening struts applied to the fuselage following a spate of crashes caused by structural failure. I do see these on the image now!

Denniss · Apr 30, 2021

Some info: I./JG54 got their first F-4s in 4/42
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, I./JG54

le_steph40 · Apr 30, 2021

Hello,
Agreed with all above for all the reasons explained : it's most probably an F-2.... 89 victories on the rudder so the photo was taken late in March 1942 (victories 88-91 claimed the 29th) and the first F-4 model were delivered during April

90 victories on the same aircraft

Jamoliva · May 3, 2021

Thank you very much all! I really appreciate all the answers. I think Hans Philipp's aircraft was a F-2 too but I also read that the stiffening struts applied to early F-4s as well. It might be wrong information. Another curious case is Herman Graf's aircraft which is usually described as an F-4 (W. Nr. 7420). Photos of this aircraft from May 1942 do show these struts. This does bring the question if the early F-4 models had these struts as well. The W. Nr. bloc 7251-7660 is referred as Bf109 F-4/Z built by Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke (WNF). Thank you again for all the great information!

Snautzer01 · May 3, 2021

perhaps retro fitted?

fubar57 · May 3, 2021

One of the books I was just going through had line drawings of the F-4 showing with and without. I'll see if I can find it again

le_steph40 · May 3, 2021

Hello,

List of 109F retrofitted with external stiffeners (From 4.4.41 to 10.10.41)

F-1: 5601 - 5608
F-1 AGO: 12601; 12602; 12605
F-1 Arado: 109.5401-109.5436
F-1 WNF: 6601 - 6771; 6773-6783

F-2: 5611-5616; 5618-5630; 5632-5639; 5641-5645; 5647-5654; 5657-5659; 5661-5665; 5667-5671; 5673-5679; 5681-5683; 5685-5701; 5703-5706; 5708-5714; 5716; 5718-5730; 5734; 5736; 5738; 5743; 5744; 5746-5751; 5753; 5754; 5757; 5763-5765; 5779; 8904

F-2 Erla: 8078-8086; 8088-8106; 8108; 8109; 8111-8114; 8118-8122; 8124; 8125; 8127; 8128; 8133; 8135

F-2 AGO; 12608; 12610; 12614; 12617; 12619; 12621; 12623-12625; 12627; 12630-12635; 12643; 12648; 12652; 12654; 12656; 12658; 12663; 12664; 12667; 12668; 12672; 12674; 12682; 12718; 12723; 12755

F-2 Arado: 109.5438; 109.5439; 109.5441; 109.5443; 109.5444; 109.5456; 109.5458; 109.5459; 109.5462; 109.5463; 109.5466; 109.5467; 109.5469-109.5471; 109.5475; 109.5476; 109.5477; 109.5479; 109.5480; 109.5482; 109.5485; 109.5486; 109.5491; 109.5499; 109.5504-109.5528

F-2 WNF: 6785-6800

F-4 WNF: 6999-7660

F-4 Erla: 8267-8806

Jamoliva · May 3, 2021

le_steph40 said:
Hello,

List of 109F retrofitted with external stiffeners (From 4.4.41 to 10.10.41)

F-1: 5601 - 5608
F-1 AGO: 12601; 12602; 12605
F-1 Arado: 109.5401-109.5436
F-1 WNF: 6601 - 6771; 6773-6783

F-2: 5611-5616; 5618-5630; 5632-5639; 5641-5645; 5647-5654; 5657-5659; 5661-5665; 5667-5671; 5673-5679; 5681-5683; 5685-5701; 5703-5706; 5708-5714; 5716; 5718-5730; 5734; 5736; 5738; 5743; 5744; 5746-5751; 5753; 5754; 5757; 5763-5765; 5779; 8904

F-2 Erla: 8078-8086; 8088-8106; 8108; 8109; 8111-8114; 8118-8122; 8124; 8125; 8127; 8128; 8133; 8135

F-2 AGO; 12608; 12610; 12614; 12617; 12619; 12621; 12623-12625; 12627; 12630-12635; 12643; 12648; 12652; 12654; 12656; 12658; 12663; 12664; 12667; 12668; 12672; 12674; 12682; 12718; 12723; 12755

F-2 Arado: 109.5438; 109.5439; 109.5441; 109.5443; 109.5444; 109.5456; 109.5458; 109.5459; 109.5462; 109.5463; 109.5466; 109.5467; 109.5469-109.5471; 109.5475; 109.5476; 109.5477; 109.5479; 109.5480; 109.5482; 109.5485; 109.5486; 109.5491; 109.5499; 109.5504-109.5528

F-2 WNF: 6785-6800

F-4 WNF: 6999-7660

F-4 Erla: 8267-8806

Wow, Steph! This is an awesome list. Thank you! What is the reference?

le_steph40 · May 3, 2021

Jamoliva said:
Wow, Steph! This is an awesome list. Thank you! What is the reference?

Infos from M. Mustafin given on another forum

Wurger · May 3, 2021

Actually it is very difficult to state if a particular plane is the F-2 or F-4 variant. The only thing that allows to say which verision we can see, is the triangle with the kind of the fuel applied below the fuel cap at the bottom of the cockpit hood. If there is the C-3 that's the F-2 but if there is the 87 or B4 that's the F-4. Unfortunatelly not always it is possible to find a nice image with the marking seen.

Bf 109F-2

Bf 109F-4

the pic source: the Internet

Jamoliva · May 3, 2021

Wurger said:
Actually it is very difficult to state if a particular plane is the F-2 or F-4 variant. The only thing that allows to say which verision we can see, is the triangle with the kind of the fuel applied below the fuel cap at the bottom of the cockpit hood. If there is the C-3 that's the F-2 but if there is the 87 or B4 that's the F-4. Unfortunatelly not always it is possible to find a nice image with the marking seen.

Bf 109F-2
View attachment 621894

Bf 109F-4
View attachment 621895
the pic source: the Internet

Thank you! You are right. Great photos. Considering what everyone said, I think it is safe to say that Philipp's aircraft was a F-2. We don't have the W.Nr. and the fuel label was painted over. Graf's aircraft has a W.Nr. so know that it was a F-4. Interesting thing, though, was reading about this subject. If it is not wrong information, apparently there were some F-2s even retrofitted with DB 601 Es and MG 151/20s as they become more available which makes them practically F-4s with F-2 W. Nr.s.

Wurger · May 4, 2021

That's true. It appears that the early and mid batches of the F-4 had the stiffeners attached. What makes the matter worse is the mix of the basic components used for both the F-2 and F-4. Eg... the air intake to the supercharger, the oil cooler, the external bulletproof windshield or the propeller
Here is a pic of Bf 109F that is said to be the same kite questioned here. But the image was taken a little bit later. Please notice the differemt colours of the spinner and what's more, the external bulletproof windshield .

the pic source: the web

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