BMW-801 exhaust parts, ID please

[Larrythepilot]

Our museum has what we believe to be parts from the exhaust system of a BMW-801 engine. I would like to put them out on display, but I need to make a proper exhibit sign to go with them. While I believe them to be part of the exhaust system, I would like to get the nomenclature right for the sign. Perhaps Engineman can help me. Pictures are attached. I forgot to put a ruler in the picture of the two parts. The longer one, with the appendage, is about 15 inches long. The shorter one is about 12 inches. There are data tags on both parts. The deeply-stamped number that is hard to read on the shorter part is 1443.

From pictures of the BMW-801 engine at the Nat'l Air & Space Museum, I can see that the exhaust parts lead to the rear of the engine, but what are they connected to? Is that some sort of exhaust manifold? How does the exhaust get to the outside?

Thanks,
Larry

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry!

Although I am not a real expert on the BMW 801, I do think that these probably are from that type. I will do some looking about but, generally the BMW 801 exhaust stubs discharged each cylinder exhaust straight to atmosphere, with some cylinder pipes siamesed together. The Fw 190 had them grouped with several on each side and some underneath the engine. Other Bombers and transports had more convoluted exhaust pipework, with the late Turbocharged versions having an exhaust manifold before the Turbine.

Eng

 

[Snautzer01]

The Th. Klatte metal goods factory owned by Theodor Klatte (1893–1962) had been located in Bremen - Huchting since 1937. It was a supplier to the aircraft industry during the Second World War and specialized in exhaust systems and engines. The main factory had been at Zum Huchtinger Bahnhof 25 in Kirchhuchting since 1937, with the camp for forced laborers in the Second World War.

Metallwarenfabrik Th. Klatte

Informationen zur ehemaligen Metallwarenfabrik Th. Klatte in Weener.

www.olaf-krueper.de

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

So, a little information. At the moment, I do suspect that these exhaust pipes are from a Fw 190 A, but final confirmation is not yet possible. The Sach Nr (Item number, Part number) 9-1039.04 and .08 will confirm the true identity, but unfortunately I have not been able to find a partslist that defines this. However, the first number 9- does show that these are aircraft engine related parts. Strangely, they do not feature in the BMW engine listings that I have found. I think that these exhaust pipes will actually be Fw designed parts, because they are specific to the type of aircraft that they are fitted too and they should feature in the aircraft parts list in the section for engine fittings as 9-1039. items.
I think that the .04 and .08 parts of the Sach Nr in this case are the cylinder positions for the specific parts. The BMW 801 cylinders are numbered by looking at the engine from the rear, the number 1 cylinder is in the 1 O'clock position and the cylinders are then numbered in simple sequence clockwise. Because the BMW 801 is a two-row Radial engine and cylinder number 1 is on the front row, the front row of cylinders are odd 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 and the rear row are even 2,4,6,8,10,12 and 14. This means that your pipes .04 and .08 would be the shorter rear cylinder pipes, .04 being the lowest pipe on the RHS group of exhausts, .08 being in the bottom group of exhausts under the engine. It looks to me like pipe .04 matches the lower exhaust with a distinctive kink on this picture I found of a genuine Fw 190 engine .
So, all we need now is someone with the correct partslist to confirm the identity of those numbers.

Cheers

Eng

Photo IPMS Stockholm on internet

 

[Tony Kambic]

Hi Larry,

So, a little information. At the moment, I do suspect that these exhaust pipes are from a Fw 190 A, but final confirmation is not yet possible. The Sach Nr (Item number, Part number) 9-1039.04 and .08 will confirm the true identity, but unfortunately I have not been able to find a partslist that defines this. However, the first number 9- does show that these are aircraft engine related parts. Strangely, they do not feature in the BMW engine listings that I have found. I think that these exhaust pipes will actually be Fw designed parts, because they are specific to the type of aircraft that they are fitted too and they should feature in the aircraft parts list in the section for engine fittings as 9-1039. items.
I think that the .04 and .08 parts of the Sach Nr in this case are the cylinder positions for the specific parts. The BMW 801 cylinders are numbered by looking at the engine from the rear, the number 1 cylinder is in the 1 O'clock position and the cylinders are then numbered in simple sequence clockwise. Because the BMW 801 is a two-row Radial engine and cylinder number 1 is on the front row, the front row of cylinders are odd 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 and the rear row are even 2,4,6,8,10,12 and 14. This means that your pipes .04 and .08 would be the shorter rear cylinder pipes, .04 being the lowest pipe on the RHS group of exhausts, .08 being in the bottom group of exhausts under the engine. It looks to me like pipe .04 matches the lower exhaust with a distinctive kink on this picture I found of a genuine Fw 190 engine .
So, all we need now is someone with the correct partslist to confirm the identity of those numbers.

Cheers

Eng


View attachment 812532

Photo IPMS Stockholm on internet

I have both the BMW 801 and Fw190 Compendiums from Udo. So far I have not located those part numbers. Many more docs to look through.

Tony

 

[Engineman]

I have both the BMW 801 and Fw190 Compendiums from Udo. So far I have not located those part numbers. Many more docs to look through.

Tony

Hi Tony,

I have looked through the Focke Wulf 190A Ersatzteilliste in the Bundes Archiv online but, the parts of the document in there don't have the sections on the engine equipment and fittings. Unfortunately, I do not have all the BMW books. Overall, I do expect the exhaust pipes to be in the airframe books (Fw) as the exhaust system was bespoke to the installation in the airframe. That is how it is with the Daimler-Benz exhausts, although there are some details in the DB engine books.
Notice that the part numbers on those exhaust pipes are just 9-1039.04 and .08, usually an engine or airframe part that is specific to that equipment would have the type number in the second part of the grouping, as in eg 9-801.xxx.xx for 801 engine parts or, 8-190.xxx.xx for 190 airframe parts.

Interested to see what you find?

Eng

 

[Tony Kambic]

Engineman and all,

Unable to copy or print from this Compendium, and I and engineman suspected, it was not in the BMW801 documents but in this airframe one: Fw190 A Triebwerk 2 Einzelteile.

Item Nr. 17 is:

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 4 9-1039.04
mit den Tellen Ortszahl 11-14
Item Nr. 22 is

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 8 9-1039.08

Note that the 'B' in RuckstoBer is a German letter which I think is an 'ss' and the 'o' has an ulmaut above it.

Sorry I could not copy pages.

Tony

 

[Snautzer01]

Engineman and all,

Unable to copy or print from this Compendium, and I and engineman suspected, it was not in the BMW801 documents but in this airframe one: Fw190 A Triebwerk 2 Einzelteile.

Item Nr. 17 is:

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 4 9-1039.04
mit den Tellen Ortszahl 11-14
Item Nr. 22 is

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 8 9-1039.08

Note that the 'B' in RuckstoBer is a German letter which I think is an 'ss' and the 'o' has an ulmaut above it.

Sorry I could not copy pages.

Tony

Use camera on you phone perhaps? Or when in document use screenshot.

 

[Engineman]

Engineman and all,

Unable to copy or print from this Compendium, and I and engineman suspected, it was not in the BMW801 documents but in this airframe one: Fw190 A Triebwerk 2 Einzelteile.

Item Nr. 17 is:

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 4 9-1039.04
mit den Tellen Ortszahl 11-14
Item Nr. 22 is

RuckstoBer fur Zylinder 8 9-1039.08

Note that the 'B' in RuckstoBer is a German letter which I think is an 'ss' and the 'o' has an ulmaut above it.

Sorry I could not copy pages.

Tony

Great info Tony!
So that is the confirmation, Fw 190 A exhaust pipes (Ruckstößer) for cylinders number 4 and number 8, BMW 801.

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

OK, I'm back. We're in the midst of a major winter storm here in the Midwest of the USA. We have about 10 inches of snow on the ground now, and it is still falling. I'm going to have a major snow removal job on my hands when it finally stops this afternoon. Fortunately, we still have the snow blower from when we used to live in the Chicago area. I hope it starts OK. It was put away with all the fuel drained out, so it should start right up.

Back to the exhaust parts. When I made the original inquiry, I wanted to accomplish 2 things. The first was to confirm that they are from a BMW-801 engine. You have certainly done that. It also appears likely that they were used on the Fw-190A, which is good to know. We have other Fw-190 airframe parts, so this stuff is all related for us. The other thing I wanted to get right is the proper name for these parts. In the response posts, Eng first called them "stubs". Then later, switched to the more formal "exhaust pipes". I think in my exhibit sign, I will use "exhaust pipes". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Preview of things to come: We have some exhaust stacks we believe to be for a Napier-Sabre engine. Specifically, I think they are for the engine in Hawker Typhoon MN-235, the only remaining whole Typhoon, presently in the RAF museum in England. The reason I have them is that Typhoon MN-235 was here in Seymour, Indiana at the end of WWII, as part of the Foreign Aircraft Evaluation Program. When 235 was shipped back to England, they left some of the spares here. Right now, we are cleaning up one pair of stacks (we have 4 pairs total) to see if we can get some good part numbers. Stay tuned.

Larry

 

[Engineman]

Back to the exhaust parts. When I made the original inquiry, I wanted to accomplish 2 things. The first was to confirm that they are from a BMW-801 engine. You have certainly done that. It also appears likely that they were used on the Fw-190A, which is good to know. We have other Fw-190 airframe parts, so this stuff is all related for us. The other thing I wanted to get right is the proper name for these parts. In the response posts, Eng first called them "stubs". Then later, switched to the more formal "exhaust pipes". I think in my exhibit sign, I will use "exhaust pipes". Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Larry

Hi Larry,

Yes, I would say that Tony's evidence from the Fw 190 A Ersatzteilliste is unequivocal, they are from a Fw 190 A.
The name for the parts is also straightforward, they are Ruckstößer, sometimes the original language is the best, and often I stick with the German terms when writing technical details as there is no ambiguity. However, they are of course Exhaust pipes, although some might call them Stubs or Ejector exhausts. The German name Ruckstößer, translates to Push items.
It really is upto you.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Thanks for the clarification Eng, and also to Tony for his contributions. You guys make me look good!

Larry