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This is going to depend on the bomb size and the plane.
The actual problem is getting crewman's hand/arm around the bomb to the lug/fitting to fasten the bomb in place. Also to fit the safety wires from the bomb rack to the fuses. And detach the bomb hoist cables from the larger bombs. With small bombs crewman may only to get his hand/arm around the bomb while sitting/kneeling/whatever under the bomb. Once they were dealing with large bombs (needs elbow along side the bomb or shoulder?) you need more 'clearance'. Some aircraft, like the B-17s, B-24s, B-26s had a walkway separating the left and right stacks of bombs and the crewmen could stand/kneel on the walkway and work on the top of the bombs. Some British bombers had access holes in the bomb bay ceiling for the bomb hoists to go through and for doing the fiddley bits with the latches/safety wires.
Another thing for 'clearance' is the angle at which the bombs could be dropped. Bombers could drop bombs at different angles of flight. Diving, climbing and/or banked. Some bombers had more latitude than others.
The Wellington originally had 2 bomb beams, dividing the bomb bay into 3. One beam had bombs hung on both sides, while the other had bombs hung on the outside.
I think modern terminology would be bomb dispenser/s.The bomb bay on the left is full of small bomb containers, what today would be called cluster bombs.
That's actually good question and it depends on how the bomb bay is set up and how the bombs are stacked. I'm sure we're all familiar with the Lancaster's cavernous bomb bay. Well the bombs were stacked horizontal and parallel to each other like this:
View attachment 791844
So because she had a long she could carry monstrous bombs like the 10,000lb tall boy.
The B17 's bomb bay was stacked vertically like this
View attachment 791845
Believe it or not, a according Greg's airplanes, square footage wise the lanc's bomb bay wasn't much bigger than the Forts though he didn't give a number. But because her bombs were stacked vertically it ruled out carrying really long, super heavy bombs although weight wise the Fort could more handle it. Still, contrary to popular believe, the B17's nax bombload was 12,800 lbs not 4,000lbs. The latter was her minimum bombload.
Believe it or not, a according Greg's airplanes, square footage wise the lanc's bomb bay wasn't much bigger than the Forts though he didn't give a number.
Still, contrary to popular believe, the B17's nax bombload was 12,800 lbs not 4,000lbs. The latter was her minimum bombload.
The Tallboy was 12,000lb nominal weight.
They could also use the 12,000lb HC bomb.
In both cases, the bomb bay doors had to be modified to fit them.
Technically, the biggest bomb load that could be hung on a B-17 was 17,600lb - 6 x 1,600 SAP + 2 x 4,000lb LC (Us equivalent to 4,000lb HC Cookie) under the inner wings.
But good luck getting that much farther than the French coast from England.
The 12,800lb max you quote would be for 6 x 1,600lb SAP internally and 2 x 1,600lb SAP under the inner wings.
The 1,600lb SAP bomb was not widely used by the Eighth Air Force.
Having bombs under the wings negatively impacted the range.
The biggest bomb that could be carried internally with that rack was the 2,000lb GP. And only on two stations.
Carrying the 2,000lb GP bomb exclusively means a maximum of 4,000lb internally. Stations above the 2,000lb could be used to carry smaller bombs or incendiaries, but I'm not sure which stations were available.
The maximum useful internal load would be 8 x 1,000lb GP = 8,000lb total.
But how far the target is will affect the bomb load.
On the first Schweinfurt raid (IIRC), for example, the bombers carried 5 or 6 x 1,000lb GP bombs each.
If the bomb of choice is 500lb GP, 12 can be carries internally = 6,000lb.
If I am reading the chart correctly, the B-17 had 18 stations that could be loaded with 250lb bombs (or up to 300lb actually). That is a load of 4,500lb (5,400lb for 300lb bombs).
You can see that more smaller bombs can be carried, but that reduces the load that can be carried.
The Lancaster, in contrast, could carry 14 x 1,000lb MC (equivalent to US 1,000lb GP) bombs. This was possible using the bomb with a shortened tail.
The B-17 was limited by its mid 1930s requirement to carry the smaller mid 1930s bombs.
The Lancaster was capable of carrying the bigger bombs because its mid 1930s requirements included the option of carrying two large torpedoes.
I suppose that if you calculated the area of the B-17's racks the total may be similar to the Lancaster's.
But I don't think that is a direct comparison.
The claim was never that the B-17's maximum bombload was 4,000lb, but that was the average bomb load.
It really does depend on the size and type of the bombs being carried.
The minimum bomb load was, of course, 0
The Tallboy was 12,000lb nominal weight.
They could also use the 12,000lb HC bomb.
In both cases, the bomb bay doors had to be modified to fit them.
Technically, the biggest bomb load that could be hung on a B-17 was 17,600lb - 6 x 1,600 SAP + 2 x 4,000lb LC (Us equivalent to 4,000lb HC Cookie) under the inner wings.
But good luck getting that much farther than the French coast from England.
The 12,800lb max you quote would be for 6 x 1,600lb SAP internally and 2 x 1,600lb SAP under the inner wings.
The 1,600lb SAP bomb was not widely used by the Eighth Air Force.
Having bombs under the wings negatively impacted the range.
The biggest bomb that could be carried internally with that rack was the 2,000lb GP. And only on two stations.
Carrying the 2,000lb GP bomb exclusively means a maximum of 4,000lb internally. Stations above the 2,000lb could be used to carry smaller bombs or incendiaries, but I'm not sure which stations were available.
The maximum useful internal load would be 8 x 1,000lb GP = 8,000lb total.
But how far the target is will affect the bomb load.
On the first Schweinfurt raid (IIRC), for example, the bombers carried 5 or 6 x 1,000lb GP bombs each.
If the bomb of choice is 500lb GP, 12 can be carries internally = 6,000lb.
If I am reading the chart correctly, the B-17 had 18 stations that could be loaded with 250lb bombs (or up to 300lb actually). That is a load of 4,500lb (5,400lb for 300lb bombs).
You can see that more smaller bombs can be carried, but that reduces the load that can be carried.
The Lancaster, in contrast, could carry 14 x 1,000lb MC (equivalent to US 1,000lb GP) bombs. This was possible using the bomb with a shortened tail.
The B-17 was limited by its mid 1930s requirement to carry the smaller mid 1930s bombs.
The Lancaster was capable of carrying the bigger bombs because its mid 1930s requirements included the option of carrying two large torpedoes.
I suppose that if you calculated the area of the B-17's racks the total may be similar to the Lancaster's.
But I don't think that is a direct comparison.
The claim was never that the B-17's maximum bombload was 4,000lb, but that was the average bomb load.
It really does depend on the size and type of the bombs being carried.
The minimum bomb load was, of course, 0lb.
The 1600lb bomb was not an SAP bomb, it was an AP bomb with a minimal HE load.The 1,600lb SAP bomb was not widely used by the Eighth Air Force.
I think you are right, why anybody is comparing square footage of bomb bay area I have no idea, unless they are trying to skew the result.I suppose that if you calculated the area of the B-17's racks the total may be similar to the Lancaster's.
This is another case of using a obscure actual "fact" to get across a certain view point and rather skewed at that.The claim was never that the B-17's maximum bombload was 4,000lb, but that was the average bomb load.
The 1600lb bomb was not an SAP bomb, it was an AP bomb with a minimal HE load.
Sometimes given as 209lbs (13%) so unless you are trying to go through really, really thick steel or concrete it was sort of dud for normal buildings. A US 500lb HE bomb carried more explosive.
I think you are right, why anybody is comparing square footage of bomb bay area I have no idea, unless they are trying to skew the result.
Cubic feet of bomb bay (volume) would be a better idea of the possibilities, limited by actual racks and/or other obstructions (like the US walkways)
This is another case of using a obscure actual "fact" to get across a certain view point and rather skewed at that.
Due to the bomb bay shape and racks of the B-17 it didn't have enough room for large numbers of "light" bombs. In this case incendiaries. Incendiaries are light for their length/diameter and the B-17 simply didn't have enough room for more than around 3000lbs worth or little over. Raids where B-17s took a little over 3000lbs worth of incendiaries to a target, other B-17s in the same squadron or group were carrying 5000lbs of HE bombs. (ten 500lb or 5 1000lb bombs) and using rather rough math you get the 4000lb "average".
You will find different bomb load charts for the B-17 showing either six or eight stations for the 1600lb bombs depending on actual model and perhaps the actual racks installed. Which is a total whitewash of what was going on. The total number of 1600lbs dropped on Europe was in the hundreds according to most sources, sometimes it is just over 1000,
In the scale of bombs dropped on Europe that is a truly insignificant number and a number of them were dropped on sub pens or other "hard" targets and not general bombardment.
The 1600lb bomb has seen more ink used/wasted on it than just about any other weapon of WW II. We even know how many you could fit under a P-61 night fighter. Why you would try to use a night fighter to drop anti-battleship bombs has never been explained
Or how?
The US had no bombs in-between the 1600lb bomb and the 1000lb bomb and since the 1600lb bomb fit the same lugs and was around 4-5in smaller in diameter that the 1000lb HE bombs it fit into a lot of places (it was a bit longer) and for the US the vertical stacking it made them sound like they could carry a lot. Four 14in dia bombs (56in) vs three 18.6in (55.8in) bombs.
Believe it or not, a according Greg's airplanes, square footage wise the lanc's bomb bay wasn't much bigger than the Forts though he didn't give a number. But because her bombs were stacked vertically it ruled out carrying really long, super heavy bombs although weight wise the Fort could more handle it. Still, contrary to popular believe, the B17's nax bombload was 12,800 lbs not 4,000lbs. The latter was her minimum bombload.
There was a war to be won and it wasn't done with 1600lb AP bombs.Is straight from the B17 manual which shows 8 stations for a 1600 lb bombs. There's no incentive to see anything, people lives were at stake and there was a war to be one
Ummm, what was said was that in terms of square footage the Forts bomb bay wasn't that much smaller. It never denied that the Lanc's was uninterrupted or more versatile.That may be almost true but what you are missing, and Greg will never admit, is the Lanc bomb bay is an Olympic swimming pool with no impedances and the B-17 bomb bay is a mixture of 2 water tanks and 2 (external) toddlers pools with big fat walls dividing them.
They may be the same "size" but you have far far more flexibility with, and in, an Olympic pool than you do in 2 water tanks and 2 toddlers pools
There was a war to be won and it wasn't done with 1600lb AP bombs.
The B-17 could hold, inside six 1000lb HE bombs or twelve 500lb HE bombs.
Counting bombs that most bomb groups never saw in their entire history doesn't get us very far.
B-17 could lift 10,000 to 14,000lbs using the under wing racks of HE bombs or 8000lbs if you wanted the bombs to land close to each other.
You can find all sorts of paperwork/load charts for Douglas SBDs with 1600lb bomb under the fuselage. What you can't find is accounts of them actually dropping that bomb in action.
You are hard pressed to find accounts of the 1600lb being dropped by either Avengers or Helldivers. One reason is that some US carriers only had space for about 20 in their magazines, assuming they even had any to put in the spaces in the magazine.
And we are contributing to the waste of ink/elections about this bomb.
I've seen many people claim that 4k was the Fort' nac load.
Anyway, 0 lbs is not a bombload and the USAAF considered 4,000lbs to be the minimum useful bombload.
However, the Fort's bomb load ranged any where from 4 to 10,000lbs ( if we count a pair of Disney bombs). Looking at the chart for her internal bay alone there are stations for up to 8 1600 lb bombs,
Looking at the chart for her internal bay alone there are stations for up to 8 1600 lb bombs,
What does he mean by "channels"?Barnes Wallis seems to have thought so as well. From a recent article in Aeroplane on the Windsor.
"....The Wellington and Warwick's geodetic structure had been relatively simple, but the Windsor wing geodetics required heavy back-to--back --channels at the root and lighter single channels outboard, which introduced many new and different joints, so any simplicity was lost.
I remember in a book (I think it was British Secret Projects) something that suggested the plane didn't have any spars (made more fuel space). I thought that was odd, I guess the book was wrong.Inner & outer wings had strengthened spars and geodetics
Strengthened aileron, fuselage and tailplanes structures.
So, the bomb was attached to the rack by a winch; then pulled right on up into the bay and attached to the sway brace which could either be pre-adjusted or adjusted afterwards?With a lot of British aircraft the bomb was attached to the rack on the ground and then the whole assembly winched into the aircraft.
What does he mean by "channels"?
If you check the manual for the B17f with 6,000 lbs in the bomb bay and 8,000 on external wing racks (14,000lbs) she had a range of 1170 miles IIRC. I think this was enough to reach just about any target in Germany. So it'd be reasonable to assume with the 12,800 lb load she had enough range to be useful. However, to get this range it would have meant dropping the altitude and flying straight in and out of target area.
So it'd be reasonable to assume with the 12,800 lb load she had enough range to be useful. However, to get this range it would have meant dropping the altitude and flying straight in and out of target area.
During the so -called Battle of Berlin Bomber Harris did order all Lancs to be loaded with 14,000lbs of bombs. Not only did the altitude have to be lowered to 18,000 feet but they also had to fly in a straight line to and from Berlin! This not only put them in accurate flak range but the Luftwaffe was also very quick to catch on and plan accordingly. Casualties sky rocketed.
It should also be noted that during the infamous Augsburg daylight raid of 1942, the Lancaster's combat debut, the Lancs were only loaded to 4,000lbs. It should also be said that as the allies gained aur superiority, both the Forts and Liberators bombload went up as they dropped the altitude was lowered to 10,000 feet on many occasions.
So, the bomb was attached to the rack by a winch; then pulled right on up into the bay and attached to the sway brace which could either be pre-adjusted or adjusted afterwards?
City | Date | Atk | Lost | H.E. | I.B. | Frag | Total | average | %HE |
Berlin | 04-Mar-44 | 31 | 11 | 45.0 | 24.3 | - | 69.3 | 4,470.97 | 64.94 |
Berlin | 06-Mar-44 | 351 | 44 | 602.5 | 237.0 | - | 839.5 | 4,783.48 | 71.77 |
Berlin/Potsdam | 06-Mar-44 | 23 | 0 | 56.0 | 10.4 | - | 66.4 | 5,773.91 | 84.34 |
Berlin/Potsdam | 06-Mar-44 | 19 | 4 | 47.5 | - | - | 47.5 | 5,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Spandau | 06-Mar-44 | 19 | 4 | 47.5 | - | - | 47.5 | 5,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Spandau | 06-Mar-44 | 6 | 0 | 15.0 | - | - | 15.0 | 5,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Templehof | 06-Mar-44 | 12 | 0 | 36.0 | - | - | 36.0 | 6,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Erkner VKF | 08-Mar-44 | 468 | 36 | 300.4 | 761.0 | - | 1,061.4 | 4,535.90 | 28.30 |
Berlin/Friedrichstrasse | 08-Mar-44 | 30 | 0 | 23.8 | 51.3 | - | 75.1 | 5,006.67 | 31.69 |
Berlin | 09-Mar-44 | 332 | 6 | 528.8 | 239.8 | - | 768.6 | 4,630.12 | 68.80 |
Berlin | 22-Mar-44 | 621 | 12 | 512.0 | 862.2 | - | 1,374.2 | 4,425.76 | 37.26 |
Berlin/Basdorf | 22-Mar-44 | 32 | 0 | - | 80.1 | - | 80.1 | 5,006.25 | 0.00 |
Berlin | 29-Apr-44 | 581 | 46 | 711.5 | 712.0 | - | 1,423.5 | 4,900.17 | 49.98 |
Berlin | 07-May-44 | 525 | 8 | 812.2 | 450.7 | - | 1,262.9 | 4,811.05 | 64.31 |
Berlin | 08-May-44 | 384 | 13 | 768.2 | 146.6 | - | 914.8 | 4,764.58 | 83.97 |
Berlin | 19-May-44 | 493 | 15 | 404.0 | 662.5 | - | 1,066.5 | 4,326.57 | 37.88 |
Berlin | 24-May-44 | 459 | 33 | 428.2 | 605.0 | - | 1,033.2 | 4,501.96 | 41.44 |
Berlin | 21-Jun-44 | 366 | 15 | 719.1 | 177.0 | - | 896.1 | 4,896.72 | 80.25 |
Berlin | 21-Jun-44 | 194 | 5 | 381.2 | 93.7 | - | 474.9 | 4,895.88 | 80.27 |
Berlin/Marienfelde | 21-Jun-44 | 30 | 3 | 44.5 | 31.8 | - | 76.3 | 5,086.67 | 58.32 |
Berlin/Niederschoneweide | 21-Jun-44 | 54 | 7 | 102.1 | 13.0 | - | 115.1 | 4,262.96 | 88.71 |
Berlin/Potsdam | 21-Jun-44 | 20 | 0 | 31.5 | 23.5 | - | 55.0 | 5,500.00 | 57.27 |
Berlin | 06-Aug-44 | 4 | 0 | 10.0 | - | - | 10.0 | 5,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Marienfelde | 06-Aug-44 | 82 | 4 | 151.5 | 42.5 | - | 194.0 | 4,731.71 | 78.09 |
Berlin/Niederschoneweide | 06-Aug-44 | 45 | 2 | 73.0 | 35.0 | - | 108.0 | 4,800.00 | 67.59 |
Berlin | 12-Sep-44 | 13 | 0 | 32.5 | - | - | 32.5 | 5,000.00 | 100.00 |
Berlin/Spandau | 06-Oct-44 | 140 | 1 | 224.5 | 57.6 | - | 282.1 | 4,030.00 | 79.58 |
Berlin/Spandau | 06-Oct-44 | 69 | 0 | 105.0 | 59.2 | - | 164.2 | 4,759.42 | 63.95 |
Berlin/Spandau | 06-Oct-44 | 68 | 0 | 83.5 | 27.5 | 51.3 | 162.3 | 4,773.53 | 51.45 |
Berlin/Tegel-Altmarkisches | 06-Oct-44 | 89 | 2 | 166.5 | 46.0 | - | 212.5 | 4,775.28 | 78.35 |
Berlin | 05-Dec-44 | 13 | 0 | 19.5 | 13.0 | - | 32.5 | 5,000.00 | 60.00 |
Berlin | 05-Dec-44 | 214 | 3 | 505.3 | - | 9.1 | 514.4 | 4,807.48 | 98.23 |
Berlin/Tegel-Rheinmetal | 05-Dec-44 | 174 | 9 | 257.0 | 171.2 | - | 428.2 | 4,921.84 | 60.02 |
Berlin | 03-Feb-45 | 1 | 0 | 1.5 | 1.0 | - | 2.5 | 5,000.00 | 60.00 |
Berlin | 03-Feb-45 | 215 | 2 | 389.5 | 144.0 | - | 533.5 | 4,962.79 | 73.01 |
Berlin | 03-Feb-45 | 717 | 24 | 1,639.3 | 106.6 | - | 1,745.9 | 4,870.01 | 93.89 |
Berlin/Alexander Platz | 26-Feb-45 | 424 | 2 | 623.7 | 607.5 | - | 1,231.2 | 5,807.55 | 50.66 |
Berlin/North | 26-Feb-45 | 291 | 2 | 402.7 | 249.1 | - | 651.8 | 4,479.73 | 61.78 |
Berlin/Schlesischer | 26-Feb-45 | 374 | 2 | 538.3 | 356.7 | - | 895.0 | 4,786.10 | 60.15 |
Berlin | 18-Mar-45 | 34 | 1 | 20.2 | 67.7 | - | 87.9 | 5,170.59 | 22.98 |
Berlin/Henningsdorf | 18-Mar-45 | 75 | 0 | 92.5 | 52.2 | - | 144.7 | 3,858.67 | 63.93 |
Berlin/North Goods | 18-Mar-45 | 498 | 8 | 734.9 | 688.8 | - | 1,423.7 | 5,717.67 | 51.62 |
Berlin/Schlesischer | 18-Mar-45 | 25 | 0 | 14.3 | 48.0 | - | 62.3 | 4,984.00 | 22.95 |
Berlin/Schlesischer | 18-Mar-45 | 362 | 4 | 426.8 | 493.0 | - | 919.8 | 5,081.77 | 46.40 |
Berlin/Tegel-Rheinmetal | 18-Mar-45 | 107 | 0 | 102.0 | 104.7 | - | 206.7 | 3,863.55 | 49.35 |
Berlin/Tegel-Rheinmetal | 18-Mar-45 | 118 | 1 | 153.8 | 80.3 | - | 234.1 | 3,967.80 | 65.70 |
Berlin/Spandau | 28-Mar-45 | 403 | 2 | 694.2 | 344.5 | - | 1,038.7 | 5,154.84 | 66.83 |
Totals | All | 9605 | 331 | 14079 | 8978 | 60.4 | 23117.4 | 4,813.62 | 60.90 |
Date | Atk | Lost | H.E. | I.B. | Total | average | %HE | Mosquito | Halifax | Lancaster |
18-Nov-43 | 402 | 9 | 894.0 | 890.8 | 1,784.8 | 8,879.76 | 50.09 | 4 | 0 | 440 |
22-Nov-43 | 670 | 26 | 1,268.5 | 1,491.7 | 2,760.2 | 8,239.52 | 45.96 | 11 | 234 | 469 |
23-Nov-43 | 322 | 20 | 795.4 | 699.2 | 1,494.6 | 9,283.48 | 53.22 | 8 | 10 | 365 |
26-Nov-43 | 407 | 28 | 961.5 | 803.2 | 1,764.7 | 8,671.61 | 54.49 | 7 | 0 | 443 |
02-Dec-43 | 401 | 40 | 987.6 | 900.3 | 1,887.9 | 9,415.82 | 52.31 | 18 | 15 | 425 |
16-Dec-43 | 450 | 25 | 1,061.1 | 971.7 | 2,032.8 | 9,034.67 | 52.20 | 10 | 0 | 483 |
23-Dec-43 | 338 | 15 | 795.1 | 647.4 | 1,442.4 | 8,535.20 | 55.12 | 8 | 7 | 364 |
29-Dec-43 | 656 | 20 | 1,231.0 | 1,361.2 | 2,592.2 | 7,903.17 | 47.49 | 3 | 252 | 457 |
01-Jan-44 | 386 | 28 | 864.4 | 704.0 | 1,568.4 | 8,126.67 | 55.11 | 0 | 0 | 421 |
02-Jan-44 | 311 | 27 | 737.5 | 512.8 | 1,250.4 | 8,040.95 | 58.98 | 12 | 9 | 362 |
20-Jan-44 | 679 | 35 | 1,303.7 | 1,385.0 | 2,688.7 | 7,919.51 | 48.49 | 10 | 264 | 495 |
21-Jan-44 | 31 | 1 | 86.2 | 1.6 | 87.8 | 5,665.03 | 98.21 | 12 | 0 | 22 |
27-Jan-44 | 481 | 33 | 1,195.0 | 776.7 | 1,971.8 | 8,198.59 | 60.61 | 15 | 0 | 515 |
28-Jan-44 | 596 | 46 | 1,215.9 | 972.6 | 2,188.5 | 7,343.89 | 55.56 | 4 | 241 | 432 |
30-Jan-44 | 489 | 33 | 1,196.6 | 998.9 | 2,195.5 | 8,979.70 | 54.50 | 12 | 82 | 440 |
15-Feb-44 | 806 | 43 | 1,377.6 | 1,582.1 | 2,959.7 | 7,344.20 | 46.55 | 16 | 314 | 561 |
24-Mar-44 | 726 | 72 | 1,198.0 | 1,594.3 | 2,792.3 | 7,692.21 | 42.90 | 18 | 216 | 577 |
Totals | 8,151 | 501 | 17,169 | 16,294 | 33,463 | 8,210.72 | 51.31 | 168 | 1,644 | 7,271 |
Note pathfinders often returned with some bombs on board, mostly markers.