Building a Catalina of operation Siren.

[Doodey]

My late father was a flight sergeant WOM/AG with 240 squadron's special duties flight based at Redhills Lake, Madras India as part of the RAF's SEAC. I am wanting to build a model of one of the Catalinas he flew in at that time: W8405 which his log says was a MK1A, and he described as "a stripped down Cat with VLR tanks."

I am seeking details of markings, colour scheme etc, for my model. I have purchased a Revell MK2 kit which I plant to start building in the next month or so. Can anyone suggest sources, information I can use? I have squadron ORBs but, for this purpose, they are no help.

 

[fubar57]

PM sent

 

[CATCH 22]

I am seeking details of markings, colour scheme etc, for my model. I have purchased a Revell MK2 kit which I plant to start building in the next month or so. Can anyone suggest sources, information I can use? I have squadron ORBs but, for this purpose, they are no help.

Hi Doodey, check this IWM-site showing 2 photos of Catalinas from the period you are writing about:
Search our collection | Imperial War Museums
I have in my personal collection a photo which apparently shows W8405, but the photo is very small. I couldn't find a bigger one among the pictures I've downloaded from different sites through the years. The Google photo search (for a bigger copy) doesn't work either. I have the feeling I've seen this particular photo in a book as well, but don't know which one...

IMHO this is a typical view of a Catalina from the 240Sqn. in Madras (note the heat exchangers!):

 

[Doodey]

Hi Doodey, check this IWM-site showing 2 photos of Catalinas from the period you are writing about:
Search our collection | Imperial War Museums
I have in my personal collection a photo which apparently shows W8405, but the photo is very small. I couldn't find a bigger one among the pictures I've downloaded from different sites through the years. The Google photo search (for a bigger copy) doesn't work either. I have the feeling I've seen this particular photo in a book as well, but don't know which one...
View attachment 565663
IMHO this is a typical view of a Catalina from the 240Sqn. in Madras (note the heat exchangers!):
View attachment 565664

Your picture of W8405, if you take a look at my avatar, was in my late Father's collection. Whether he took the picture, or not, is mere conjecture but it was in his photo album. He did offer it to an aeroplane magazine, which one I don't know, in the 70s along with various other types he flew in during his career and he did typed notes for each aircraft, hence what I know about W8405 and the "VLR tanks." (Bless you Dad.)

The other photo you have shared, thank you btw it is brilliant, shows more white on the lower surfaces which brings to mind a Catalina model that Dad made in the 60s. It was an Airfix PBY5A which he removed the undercarriage and filled in the recesses in the fuselage with plastic putty. Even more intriguing was the colour scheme he chose, the upper surfaces were a midnight blue and the lower a matt white. The blue on the fuselage was only a small area and it was predominantly white. I know he didn't have access to SEAC roundels, or at least I do not recall them. I am sure that there is a photo of that model somewhere but the number of boxes of photos I inherited from Mum and then my younger sister makes searching a daunting task.

All the help received so far has been fantastic, so thank you all. And the help still to come, thanks in anticipation.

 

[CATCH 22]

Your picture of W8405, if you take a look at my avatar, was in my late Father's collection.

Please excuse my absent-mindedness! So if it's a photo from your father's album I really don't know how did I find it and where - I'm sure it's from the internet though.

The other photo you have shared, thank you btw it is brilliant, shows more white on the lower surfaces which brings to mind a Catalina model that Dad made in the 60s. It was an Airfix PBY5A which he removed the undercarriage and filled in the recesses in the fuselage with plastic putty. Even more intriguing was the colour scheme he chose, the upper surfaces were a midnight blue and the lower a matt white.

The camo scheme in general reminds me of the Atlantic ASW II scheme of the US Navy. I've seen some colour profiles depicting the top colour as a bluish-grey (or greyish blue), but never as midnight blue.

I believe it should be EDSG (extra dark sea grey) which has a blue hue.

The middle portion of the wing and the floats appear darker though. It's either a new paint or this are the EDSG areas and the rest is painted with a lighter colour. On the photo of "black A" one can see that the cowlings are white and the demarcation line between white and EDSG is behind the cowling (not as depicted in the profile).
The photo I posted is interesting for me because of the top roundels, dirt, stains, weathered surfaces etc. I believe the colours of the wing roundels are not the same as those of the fuselage markings. The original top roundels have been overpainted and the new smaller discs are kind of lighter or maybe just weathered?
One can see similar appearance on the small photo as well, but if you have the original you can check those detail easier.
Regards!

 

[Doodey]

Please excuse my absent-mindedness! So if it's a photo from your father's album I really don't know how did I find it and where - I'm sure it's from the internet though.

The camo scheme in general reminds me of the Atlantic ASW II scheme of the US Navy. I've seen some colour profiles depicting the top colour as a bluish-grey (or greyish blue), but never as midnight blue.
View attachment 566267
I believe it should be EDSG (extra dark sea grey) which has a blue hue.
View attachment 566268
The middle portion of the wing and the floats appear darker though. It's either a new paint or this are the EDSG areas and the rest is painted with a lighter colour. On the photo of "black A" one can see that the cowlings are white and the demarcation line between white and EDSG is behind the cowling (not as depicted in the profile).
The photo I posted is interesting for me because of the top roundels, dirt, stains, weathered surfaces etc. I believe the colours of the wing roundels are not the same as those of the fuselage markings. The original top roundels have been overpainted and the new smaller discs are kind of lighter or maybe just weathered?
One can see similar appearance on the small photo as well, but if you have the original you can check those detail easier.
Regards!

Wonderful. This looks more like the colour scheme Dad used in my dim, hazy memory of that model half a century ago. From a quick glance at the avatar, it shows a larger dark area, maybe as W8405 was a replacement for JX311(? I cannot access my archive in the man cave as it is a bedroom for visitors for a few days) which Flt Lt Dennis Turnbull broke landing and taking off in too big a swell, so maybe the previous Catalina was the one from Dad's model. I know Dad suffered with PTSD from their ops for a long time after the war.

 

[Doodey]

About as good as I can get without using my desktop computer, which I cannot access just now.

 

[CATCH 22]

View attachment 566291
About as good as I can get without using my desktop computer, which I cannot access just now.

A very nice shot of the bird! I might open a can of worms with some details I'll post in the next days, but I hope you'll get (at some point) a more precise answer about the camo of this a/c.
For comparison, one of the photos from the Imperial War Museum (see my earlier post) can be another good starting point. BTW the a/c from your fathers album has flame dampeners and no heat exchangers on the exhausts. The cowlings are of darker colour. The photo below shows an a/c with flame dampeners and darker cowlings as well:

 

[Doodey]

A very nice shot of the bird! I might open a can of worms with some details I'll post in the next days, but I hope you'll get (at some point) a more precise answer about the camo of this a/c.
For comparison, one of the photos from the Imperial War Museum (see my earlier post) can be another good starting point. BTW the a/c from your fathers album has flame dampeners and no heat exchangers on the exhausts. The cowlings are of darker colour. The photo below shows an a/c with flame dampeners and darker cowlings as well:
View attachment 566369

I have seen this photograph before, when I cannot recall. Bringing it back to my attention has made my look much closer. Thank you for pointing out the flame dampeners, a detail I shall have to consider when I start building.
As the Special Duties Flight was involved in clandestine operations, these would be a boon at night, I would have thought. On closer inspection, I see the aircraft appears to bu "U" and I will check the ORBs but I am sure the flight were U,V,X,Y and Z.

The mixture of erks and coolies involved in this job is quite who/what the chap in the dark shorts and Bombay Bowler is, and whether they pulling the plane into the slipway ready for the beaching gear and a mechanised extraction. The boat is maybe involved in guiding and controlling the bows.

* Having looked at the photo on the IWM site they say the aircraft is being lowered back into the water. But, they also caption the photo as Redhills Lake, Ceylon and not Madras where it actually is.*

 

[Doodey]

Having had the flame dampening exhausts pointed out to me, I have sourced a set for my model. My next task is getting the paints, White and an Extra Dark Sea Grey plus all the extra bits.

Now to work out a match for the decals, letter and s/n. Such fun!

 

[fubar57]

The large dark area on the wings might be exhaust staining

 

[CATCH 22]

The large dark area on the wings might be exhaust staining

View attachment 566801​

Geo, the exhaust stains are always there, in all the3 photos above. In the first of them the dark area and the stains are different and the dark area is very regular.

This obviously was not always the same with all Catalinas (the a/c on the third photo does not have darker area in the middle of the wing). I believe this area has been overpainted (photo above) - there are some other smaller areas in darker tone which look like repairs. The floats are also darker because they were mostly down and did not fade that fast. On the nice photo of W8405 all vertical areas are much darker than the wing for the same reason, the floats too.
A few posts ago I mentioned that I don't want to open a can of worms with some additional information. Here it is:
There are these very detailed and profound camouflage research brochures + decals by Aviaeology. One of them is RCAF Overseas Catalinas. Even being called so those were RAF Catalinas with Canadian crews. They are different squadrons too, but I don't believe that every squadron had its own camouflage style. If one checks the Aviaeology pages (here another copy but in B/W) the top camo shows the standard 2-tones: EDSG (Extra Dark Sea Grey)+DSG (Dark Slate Grey) but faded over white.
It is plausible to asume that the camo was not changed to EDSG only, but I leave this for other interpretations as well.

 

[fubar57]

I agree with you on the one you just posted being a replacement. I was referring to Post #7

 

[Doodey]

Geo, the exhaust stains are always there, in all the3 photos above. In the first of them the dark area and the stains are different and the dark area is very regular.

This obviously was not always the same with all Catalinas (the a/c on the third photo does not have darker area in the middle of the wing). I believe this area has been overpainted (photo above) - there are some other smaller areas in darker tone which look like repairs. The floats are also darker because they were mostly down and did not fade that fast. On the nice photo of W8405 all vertical areas are much darker than the wing for the same reason, the floats too.
A few posts ago I mentioned that I don't want to open a can of worms with some additional information. Here it is:
There are these very detailed and profound camouflage research brochures + decals by Aviaeology. One of them is RCAF Overseas Catalinas. Even being called so those were RAF Catalinas with Canadian crews. They are different squadrons too, but I don't believe that every squadron had its own camouflage style. If one checks the Aviaeology pages (here another copy but in B/W) the top camo shows the standard 2-tones: EDSG (Extra Dark Sea Grey)+DSG (Dark Slate Grey) but faded over white.
It is plausible to asume that the camo was not changed to EDSG only, but I leave this for other interpretations as well.

Great information and resources for me to check up on, thank you.