Chinese Gloster Gladiators

[Ilsa Gutrune]

I have read recently (and sought out this forum to find out if it is true) that the Chinese Gloster Gladiators had the same Browning FN N1939 (in 7.92) as the IAR-80/81? is this true?
I have also heard that due to the German advisors, they had a factory for creating 7.92 ammo?

 

[ThomasP]

I do not know if the Chinese used Brownings in 7.92mm, but they did use rifles and machine guns in that caliber, and had a factory (the Guangxi Arsenal aka Gongxian Arsenal) producing rifles and ammunition in 7.92mm.

 

[Ilsa Gutrune]

Thanks, Thomas.

 

[Weizenbrot]

I have read from some Chinese sources that the guns on the Chinese Gladiator had poor fitting with the 7.62mm ammo purchased from Belgium. This resulted in very low reliability of the guns during fights, with usually only one of the four guns functioning properly. This issue can be observed in fights from late 1938. Considering that the Gladiator was taken out of service in late 1939, it is my personal speculation that the mentioned modification may not have occurred.

 

[Maxrobot1]

Chinese factories were making 7.92 x 57mm ammunition. They were making copies of the German Model 1888 Commission rifle and later mausers. they also used Czech machine guns that the Bren Gun was based on.
I don't think any Chinese factories made 30-06 until after WW2 and that was Taiwan. I don't see any Chinese made .303 at all.

International Ammunition Association Web Forum

The IAA was founded in 1955 to serve cartridge collectors and professionals in the areas of ammunition research and forensics.

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

 

[Ilsa Gutrune]

Chinese factories were making 7.92 x 57mm ammunition. They were making copies of the German Model 1888 Commission rifle and later mausers. they also used Czech machine guns that the Bren Gun was based on.
I don't think any Chinese factories made 30-06 until after WW2 and that was Taiwan. I don't see any Chinese made .303 at all.

International Ammunition Association Web Forum

The IAA was founded in 1955 to serve cartridge collectors and professionals in the areas of ammunition research and forensics.

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

Max,
May I ask, do you know where I can read about this?

This is cool!

 

[Maxrobot1]

Every once in a while I check in on the International Ammunition collectors web forum. Sea mines, torpedoes, mortar shells, 16 inch naval shells, .577-450 Martini-Henry shells, in fact, I never know what will be discussed.
Cartridge headstamps are a big part of collecting and when someone cannot identify a marking they submit it to the forum members.
The Japanese made .303 British ammunition before and during WW2 since they used their own version of the Lewis gun in some Navy planes back seat.
I know the Chinese bought U.S. aircraft pre-WW2 but I don't know if any used 30-06 ammo. I'm pretty sure the AVG Flying Tigers used .303 in the wing guns since the planes were part of a British order diverted.
Also I found this - "The Gloster Gladiator was the last RAF fighter to be armed with the Vickers, later replaced by Brownings. "
the Vickers guns were certainly .303 but the British also used Brownings (Our M1919 type guns) in .303 so the Gladiators probably had .303 guns.

 

[c1951]

Every once in a while I check in on the International Ammunition collectors web forum. Sea mines, torpedoes, mortar shells, 16 inch naval shells, .577-450 Martini-Henry shells, in fact, I never know what will be discussed.
Cartridge headstamps are a big part of collecting and when someone cannot identify a marking they submit it to the forum members.
The Japanese made .303 British ammunition before and during WW2 since they used their own version of the Lewis gun in some Navy planes back seat.
I know the Chinese bought U.S. aircraft pre-WW2 but I don't know if any used 30-06 ammo. I'm pretty sure the AVG Flying Tigers used .303 in the wing guns since the planes were part of a British order diverted.
Also I found this - "The Gloster Gladiator was the last RAF fighter to be armed with the Vickers, later replaced by Brownings. "
the Vickers guns were certainly .303 but the British also used Brownings (Our M1919 type guns) in .303 so the Gladiators probably had .303 guns.

The Gladiators did have Brownings, they also had provision for another two on the top wing. In Norway it was used with devastating effect against the Luftwaffe. They used deflection shooting which was adopted by Fighter Command. One pilot shot down six enemy planes in one day using Brownings. (" June 1940-Pilot Officer Jacobsen of 263 Squadron.)

 

[Snautzer01]

The Gladiators did have Brownings, they also had provision for another two on the top wing. In Norway it was used with devastating effect against the Luftwaffe. They used deflection shooting which was adopted by Fighter Command. One pilot shot down six enemy planes in one day using Brownings. (" June 1940-Pilot Officer Jacobsen of 263 Squadron.)

Did they or think they did ?

 

[Greg Boeser]

Every once in a while I check in on the International Ammunition collectors web forum. Sea mines, torpedoes, mortar shells, 16 inch naval shells, .577-450 Martini-Henry shells, in fact, I never know what will be discussed.
Cartridge headstamps are a big part of collecting and when someone cannot identify a marking they submit it to the forum members.
The Japanese made .303 British ammunition before and during WW2 since they used their own version of the Lewis gun in some Navy planes back seat.
I know the Chinese bought U.S. aircraft pre-WW2 but I don't know if any used 30-06 ammo. I'm pretty sure the AVG Flying Tigers used .303 in the wing guns since the planes were part of a British order diverted.
Also I found this - "The Gloster Gladiator was the last RAF fighter to be armed with the Vickers, later replaced by Brownings. "
the Vickers guns were certainly .303 but the British also used Brownings (Our M1919 type guns) in .303 so the Gladiators probably had .303 guns.

According to Ford, about a third of AVG Tomahawks were armed with Colt machine guns chambered for 7.92 x 57.
The 7.92 x 57 Mauser round was very popular.

 

[Ilsa Gutrune]

According to Ford, about a third of AVG Tomahawks were armed with Colt machine guns chambered for 7.92 x 57.
The 7.92 x 57 Mauser round was very popular.

Greg,
May I ask which "Ford"?
thank you!

 

[Greg Boeser]

Daniel Ford, Flying Tigers

 

[c1951]

Did they or think they did ?

Checked against Luftwaffe records and quoted by well established authors

 

[MikeMeech]

Checked against Luftwaffe records and quoted by well established authors

Hi
The 2nd June 1940 operations over Norway as recorded in 'The Gloster Gladiator' by F K Mason, 1964, pages 72-73:

And from 'Fledgling Eagles' by Shores, 1991, pages 338-339:

Mike

 

[MikeMeech]

I have read from some Chinese sources that the guns on the Chinese Gladiator had poor fitting with the 7.62mm ammo purchased from Belgium. This resulted in very low reliability of the guns during fights, with usually only one of the four guns functioning properly. This issue can be observed in fights from late 1938. Considering that the Gladiator was taken out of service in late 1939, it is my personal speculation that the mentioned modification may not have occurred.

Hi
According to 'Gloster Aircraft since 1917' by Derek James and 'The Gloster Gladiator' by F K Mason, the Chinese Gladiator order of 36 aircraft were fitted with Vickers Mk. V .303 MGs. These served in 17th, 28th and 29th Squadrons of the 5th Air Group of CAF (see page 133 of 'A History of Chinese Aviation' (until 1949) by Lennart Andersson. As the CAF had a large mixture of aircraft types from France, Italy, Germany as well as the USA, I suspect there were a wide range of weapons in use.

Mike

 

[spanishbuddha]

Every once in a while I check in on the International Ammunition collectors web forum. Sea mines, torpedoes, mortar shells, 16 inch naval shells, .577-450 Martini-Henry shells, in fact, I never know what will be discussed.
Cartridge headstamps are a big part of collecting and when someone cannot identify a marking they submit it to the forum members.
The Japanese made .303 British ammunition before and during WW2 since they used their own version of the Lewis gun in some Navy planes back seat.
I know the Chinese bought U.S. aircraft pre-WW2 but I don't know if any used 30-06 ammo. I'm pretty sure the AVG Flying Tigers used .303 in the wing guns since the planes were part of a British order diverted.
Also I found this - "The Gloster Gladiator was the last RAF fighter to be armed with the Vickers, later replaced by Brownings. "
the Vickers guns were certainly .303 but the British also used Brownings (Our M1919 type guns) in .303 so the Gladiators probably had .303 guns. According to 'Gloster Aircraft since 1917' by Derek James and 'The Gloster Gladiator' by F K Mason, the Chinese Gladiator order of 36 aircraft were fitted with Vickers Mk. V .303 MGs. These served in 17th, 28th and 29th Squadrons of the 5th Air Group of CAF (see page 133 of 'A History of Chinese Aviation' (until 1949) by Lennart Andersson. As the CAF had a large mixture of aircraft types from France, Italy, Germany as well as the USA, I suspect there were a wide range of weapons in use check Portsmouth FC.

Yes, the Chinese Gloster Gladiators indeed used the Browning FN M1939 machine gun in 7.92mm, the same as the IAR-80/81. Regarding ammunition, German advisors did assist China in setting up facilities for 7.92mm Mauser production during that time.