Comparison of Pacific, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean, and North Atlantic naval combat

Schweik said:

I started this thread to compare the two Theaters. Remember this all started with your ridiculous claims that the air combat in the Pacific Theater paled in commparison to the convoy fights in the MTO with the fleet of 600 Italian and German planes. As this discussion started to focus on the specific aircraft, first strike planes and now especially fighters- I summarized all the combat involved with Hurricanes and FAA naval aircraft in Ceylon, because that was about the only maritime related air strikes the FAA or RAF got into in the Pacific by that time. This was in contrast to the combined naval and land air war in the MTO such as at Pedestal and the other Malta convoys.

We were already, incidentally, discussing land based bombers such as the G4M and G3M specifically. Both are IJN strike aircraft equally capable of attacking land or sea targets.

Then slaterat posted one raid at Darwin involving P-40s, and the one raid on Midway, and compared it to two raids involving the Hurricanes at Ceylon. Both of which I had already posted.

(There were other IJN carrier raids in the Pacific besides Midway, just FYI.)

I just pointed out the obvious gap in the record, there was plenty more combat involving the exact same fighters in the same spot. You may have decided that the discussion should stop whenever you or someone you agrees with makes a point - but I never signed a contract saying I agreed with anything you posted or think.

And the truth is, I almost never do.

So, here's the thing, I am free to speak my mind, so I posted the results of the US P-40 units involvement in the defense of Darwin, which did not match the trend slaterat was trying to establish. And I guess you really didn't like that. If I include later activity from that same unit from Port Morseby you will like it even less. And also (obviously) if we include other Japanese naval strikes against US carriers, it could trigger got knows what.

If you want to start a thread called "Cherry pick air battles which put your favorite aircraft in a favorable light" go right ahead. The 111 raids on Darwin and other North Australian bases also by the way did include attacks on shipping, according to Wikipedia on the Jan 12 raid there were 11 vessels sunk, but ships were still getting sunk in 1943.

I think the point of discussing these things on this forum though is to establish what really happened and learn about it. Not scramble desperately and cherry pick data to try to make it look like the side you identify with never made a mistake. That seems pretty pointless, we can all easily read what happened.

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Posts 141/142 specifically looked at KB carrier raids and the relative efficacy of Allied fighter defense to those raids. Rather than specifically reply to the post, you try to shift the discussion to something else.

I don't know who's "winning", but this tempestuous thread has been very informative for me. I'm somewhat familiar with American involvement in the PTO but not so much. So guys, I gotta tell ya, every post is a logical "counter" to the previous one. However, it seems the needle is stuck on box scores and not differences in these campaigns.
This thread has made me aware of similarities though. Such as trying to fly unfamiliar, clapped out, deficient aircraft while unbelievably ill with tropical illness.
That is certainly a difference between SWPA and the North Atlantic campaigns.

RCAFson said:

The only part of the raid looked at in posts 141/142 was that by the KB aircraft.

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Which, in my post, were A6M, D3A and B5N aircraft.

Perhaps my English isn't up to par, but I was fairly sure that A6M, D3A and B5N is universally accepted as describing Imperial Japanese Navy types.

In regards to the Allied aircraft at Darwin, 10 P-40s were returning from an aborted flight and ended up flying into the midst of the attack. Several were caught whilst landing, a couple were able to "touch and go" but were still shot down. Some tried to fight the A6Ms and lost. One was able to down two D3As but was shot down in turn.

All other aircraft on site were destroyed on the ground - there was not enough warning to enable a "scramble" or disbursement.

SaparotRob said:

I don't know who's "winning", but this tempestuous thread has been very informative for me. I'm somewhat familiar with American involvement in the PTO but not so much. So guys, I gotta tell ya, every post is a logical "counter" to the previous one. However, it seems the needle is stuck on box scores and not differences in these campaigns.

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That's because the thread started from that kind of argument on another thread. I'm hoping this one will expand knowledge of the relative times and places. I'm very interested in both the MTO and the Pacific, particularly in 1942 and early 1943, which were really the turning points in the war. It's fascinating how the Allies rallied across the globe, more or less at the same time.

This thread has made me aware of similarities though. Such as trying to fly unfamiliar, clapped out, deficient aircraft while unbelievably ill with tropical illness.
That is certainly a difference between SWPA and the North Atlantic campaigns.

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Deficient, maybe. Unfamiliar, definitely. But actually they were brand new, not clapped out. Literally taken out out of their crates and assembled just a couple of weeks before they went into combat. If anything they were too new, hadn't had their 'shakeout' - they were part of the very first shipment of P-40E-1 delivered to the Theater, diverted to Australia after Java fell while they were on the way across the Pacific. Some of the rest of them were sunk in their crates on other ships.

These pilots had never flown high performance aircraft like a P-40 and they crashed half of them in landing accidents just making their way from southern Australia to Darwin and then New Guinea. Many had never flown an aircraft with retractable landing gear. They were incredibly brave guys in extremely trying conditions.

Gradually they did figure out how to use the new aircraft successfully against the Japanese, but at the cost of many lives. Milne Bay was a really important victory, famous in Australia but not as well known in the US as Coral Sea or Midway but in a way just as important. If the Japanese would have captured Southern New Guinea / Port Moresbey it would have been really bad. The majority of the Australia military including almost all of their air force was already heavily committed in North Africa and other Theaters, fighting with the British. Darwin and some of the other far-northern towns were already getting plastered by Japanese bombers and people were really worried about an invasion (which may not have been realistic in terms of Japanese plans but they had no way of knowing that). The ground victory at Milne Bay and the Kokoda Trail was won by Australian militia, basically. It was one of the first ground victories against the Japanese Army which had just steamrolled the British in Malaya and the Americans in the Philippines.

I don't know where I got the clapped out part from, perhaps I was thinking of Mk1 Hurricanes. I now remember that there had been new P-40's that had "teething" problems. I thought that was in the Philippines.

SaparotRob said:

I don't know where I got the clapped out part from, perhaps I was thinking of Mk1 Hurricanes. I now remember that there had been new P-40's that had "teething" problems. I thought that was in the Philippines.

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It was very similar issue there as well, brand new P-40E-1 had arrived very shortly before the attack, they had just converted and not completed their shakeout yet. But at least some of those pilots had experience flying earlier model P-40s (B/C)

It might be interesting to know that the US carrier Langley had been in Darwin offloading aircraft shortly before the Japanese attacked.
It was seen and it's berth position noted by Japanese recon before the attack, too.

I don't know where I read it but I think seaplane tender U.S.S. Langley was reputed to have the best galley in the Pacific.

I think they have a model of it in the Pennsacola naval air museum, (along with about a dozen other carriers, all in 1/72 scale, with their aircraft)



She was crippled and later scuttled just about a week after the first Darwin raid (on February 27). Carrying 32 x P-40s with their crews to be taken to Java, she was attacked by 16 x G4M bombers (in turn escorted by 15 x A6M fighters) off the coast of Java. The G4M were carrying bombs rather than torpedoes, and initially the Langley was able to evade, but then they changed tactics and bracketed with bombs, hitting it with 5 bombs and setting it on fire. Escorting destroyers took the surviving crew off (including, probably, the cook).

Most of the Langley crew ended up on the oiler USS Pecos, and then most of them died on March 1, 1942 when Pecos itself was sunk by Japanese dive bombers from the Sōryū and the Kaga. 232 crew from both ships (out of 317 on the Pecos and 468 on Langley) were picked up by the destroyer USS Whipple. Many other survivors were reportedly left to drown in the sea due to fear of a submarine attack.

The 32 fighter pilots on Langley on their way to Java were transferred to the Destroyer USS Edsall, which was then sunk, also on March 1, by Japanese aircraft and surface ships off the coast of Java. She ran into the heavy cruiser Chikuma and the battleships Hei and Kirishima, all of which opened fire at long range, but after shooting back Edsall fled and the heavy guns initially failed to score any telling hits. She was then attacked by IJN D3A divebomebrs from the Kaga, Hiryū and Sōryū which succeeded in immobilizing Edsall. She was then reportedly sunk by guns from the Hei, while the action was filmed by a cameraman on the cruiser Tone.

This is Edsall just as it was sinking, according to Wikipedia. The Japanese thought it was the British destroyer HMS Pope.



There were several survivors of the Edsall, but the Japanese only picked up a few, leaving the rest on the water. The bodies of six navy sailors from Edsall and five USAAF pilots were later found decapitated in a mass grave in the East Indies.

Tough times in early 1942...

I've seen pictures of the"Covered Wagon" in her glory days but never have I seen that one of the sinking of U.S.S. Edsall.
It brings home what happened off Samar in a way that words can't. Granted it's not a Fletcher class but I can imagine that being U.S.S. Johnston.

That image is from a 90 second video that was shot, if anybody can find that I'd love to see it.

I'm still hoping the cook from the Langley made it to the Whipple and survived the war to open a great restaurant in New Orleans...

Found a video about it (audio narrative with photos)

That is a very compelling still of U.S.S. Edsall under attack. That crew going through that hell after days of attack. It doesn't get the press that other actions got but it's no less significant nor heroic. Same for the ABDA fleet.
I hope that Chef did make out just fine too!

Now you guys made me hungry...

Getting back to the Hurricane, I am not sure what the problem(s) were or was precisely, but I'm developing some theories.

First the positive:

• Hurricane was reasonably fast, certainly comparable to the two main Japanese fighters and fast enough to catch most of the bombers. As fast at the Wildcat and only a little slower than the P-40 or P-39 at least at altitude.
• It was certainly more than well armed enough
• Had pretty good altitude performance, probably better than the Wildcat or the Zero, definitely better than the P-40C, E or K
• Had a pretty good climb rate, again probably better than the Wildcat or the P-40, inferior to the Zero and (at least on paper) the P-39,
• Was more maneuverable than most of the other Allied fighters, definitely had the best turning circle out of all of them.
• Had radios, unlike a lot of the Japanese fighters

Then the negative

• Though probably fast enough, it wasn't that fast - no speed advantage over the Japanese fighters,
• Didn't have a very high dive speed or dive acceleration (though I think this is debated)
• Cannon armament ran out of ammo very quickly (at least the earlier models) and seemed to be subject to stoppages
• Altitude and climb seem to have been seriously affected by the climate, which may be a big one (more on this in a minute)
• Slow rate of roll (this is also debated)

The thing about climate is this - both in the Pacific / CBI and in the MTO, Hurricanes seemed to perform below spec in the Tropical weather. This shows up in some of the tests on WWIIaircraftperformance. It could be a fluke, many of those tests seem to be one-offs and quite a few seem to show anomalies. I have a theory that maybe the Tropical conditions caused some issues with the engine, or maybe the cooling system, and maybe also the air-frame - in the torrid air and dusty or dirty conditions. Just a hunch, but there seems to be a similar issue with the P-39 and the F2A* which did so poorly in the Pacific but seemed to thrive in the colder weather in Russia. I am also not sure about the prevalence of the infamous Vokes filter, which was heavily criticized in the Western Desert. I know it was sometimes used in Burma I'm not sure about Ceylon etc.

The other issues with roll and dive speed perhaps not being strengths of the type may have affected the ability to perform an escape maneuver. This was always critical in air combat, but particularly so in the Pacific where the Japanese fighters could almost always outmaneuver Allied fighters if combat went on long enough. I know that Wildcat, P-40 and P-39 pilots (and later on Corsair and Hellcat too) had a standard escape maneuver against the Japanese which consisted initially of a rapid split S and power dive, and later I heard pilots describing a weird kind of outside roll that then also turned into a power dive. Apparently this was harder to for a pursuing fighter to track and shoot at. Both methods took advantage of good rate of roll, as we know the A6M had poor high speed roll and problems with torque. The Wildcat pilots also did their rolling scissors / Thach Weave, and the P-38 pilots did a shallow high speed climb on max boost.

I don't know if such an escape maneuver was done with Hurricanes or not, for all I know it was, but I have never read about it.

I know the P-40 pilots also pretty quickly worked out that they could overboost their engines for as much as 30% more power (or even more) once they were down on the deck and used this on several occasions to escape pursuit. The Australians from 75th Sqn RAAF described doing this exact thing at Milne Bay.

I don't know if this was ever done overboosting with Hurricanes and Merlins or not. I can't think of any reasons why it couldn't have been. I know standard allowed boost ratings were steadily increased on the Merlins but maybe not quickly enough to avert disaster in the field.

Anyway that is my $.02 on that subject.

*I know the Finns got a lighter, less kitted out F2A, and the Russians stripped their P-39s, but I believe these measures were also attempted in the Pacific by mechanics in the field.

I should also add, that in the MTO and the Pacific, the Hurricane units seemed to do very well in attacking bombers, they just had trouble with the more advanced enemy fighters.

Schweik said:

I should also add, that in the MTO and the Pacific, the Hurricane units seemed to do very well in attacking bombers, they just had trouble with the more advanced enemy fighters.

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Might have also had something to do with tactics and training. If you're used to being one of the more nimble guys on the block, you may not be prepared for an encounter with a ninja.

I have posted this before and I will again. This "myth" of the superiority of the Zero over the Hurricane just won't die.

Could you summarize that, i.e. who wrote it, what is says, based on what data, and turn it right side up so it's easier to read?

Schweik said:

Could you summarize that, i.e. who wrote it, what is says, based on what data, and turn it right side up so it's easier to read?

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And how about sending it in a format my Android can read?