SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
As long as we're all gathered here together, would the proper pronunciation of Ki-43 be "kay eye" or "kee" 43?
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Maybe the issue was more dive-acceleration than ultimate dive speed?
(or the lack of trim tabs, which was a big deal on other aircraft)
I am sorry but you are now saying that the Hurricane II was heavily loaded with armour and that is the reason why it's performance suffered? I thought the Mk IV was the GA version with extra protection
I haven't been able to find the actual flight test comparison between the Spit V and Zero A6M3 but I have found a good summary which follows. In summary below 20,000 ft the Zero had a number of significant advantages over the Spitfire and over 20,000 ft the Spitfire was able to start gaining the upper hand. Unless you believe that a Hurricane II has a better performance than a Spitfire V, your argument holds little, if any, water. I obviously recognise that a Ki43 is different to a Zero but its characteristics are very similar, speed, agility, acceleration are of the same order
Link is as follows
darwinspitfires.com/index.php?page=spitfire-vc-versus-the-zero
It should also be noted that air to air combat over Burma was very unusual, the vast majority of sorties were GA missions so of course the aircraft are going to be equipped with bomb racks and other additions. It's a fact of life. All allied aircraft spent most of the time on GA missions. It should also be noted that a number of Ki43 aircraft had similar additions so it wasn't always one sided.
All the links I know (including the one you posted) state that to combat the Japanese fighters you need to keep the speed above 300 mph. A Hurricane after spending some time in Burma would be lucky to get over 300mph beside which the Japanese fighters also had a similar top speed, and had a better acceleration so the difference is marginal.
The difference between a Hurricane IIA and a IIB is of course 4 x LMG, as the armour would be the same, hardly a massive difference. 4 x 20mm is of course a lot more but it was the standard fit. The RAF could have limited the Hurricane to 8 x LMG or 2 x 20mm as often done in the Middle East but didn't as GA was the only reason the Hurricane was kept in service.I stated: "were heavily loaded with armour, armament (typically 4 x 20mm or 12 x BMGs) carried external hard points with bombs and trop filters." The KI43II might have had bomb rack capability but it was rarely used as a ground attack aircraft.
I agree with this and the number lost to the Ki43 was small because as I stated the number of air to air combats in this area was very low.Hurricanes flew thousands of ground attack sorties in Burma and the number lost to Ki43s was very small. An analysis of KI43/Hurricane combats via Shores ( Air war for Burma) indicates that the KI43s almost always attacked from above, which is hardly surprising, given the ground attack role assigned to the Hurricanes
The A6M3 comes into it because the test clearly shows that the Spitfire V was clearly inferior to the A6M3 at the altitudes that the combats in Burma often happened. As a result to believe that the Hurricane was better than the Zero would mean the Hurricane was better than the Spit V which it clearly wasn't.Where does the A6M3 come into this? We know from USN/USAAF side by side testing that the F4F-4 was completely outperformed by the A6M2 yet USAAF tests show that the Hurricane IIA has generally better performance than their tested example of the A6M2, and that was without the use of overboost on the USAAF Hurricane.
This limitation in the boost allowed to the Spitfire isn't mentioned and to be honest lacks logic, why would the allies limit the boost used. If you have a link that shows the test in more detail I would appreciate it.The Spitfire V/M46 comparison to theA6M3 handicapped the Spitfire because it didn't permit it to use overboost, which the high altitude rated Merlin46 requires at low altitude for best performance. When the RAAF Spitfire V/M46 testing was redone with overboost, the performance results applied to the Spitfire/A6M3 tests shifted completely in the Spitfire's favour, except for turn radius and other maneuverability factors.
An analysis of KI43/Hurricane combats via Shores ( Air war for Burma) indicates that the KI43s almost always attacked from above, which is hardly surprising, given the ground attack role assigned to the Hurricanes
Taking your points one at a time
The difference between a Hurricane IIA and a IIB is of course 4 x LMG, as the armour would be the same, hardly a massive difference. 4 x 20mm is of course a lot more but it was the standard fit. The RAF could have limited the Hurricane to 8 x LMG or 2 x 20mm as often done in the Middle East but didn't as GA was the only reason the Hurricane was kept in service.
I agree with this and the number lost to the Ki43 was small because as I stated the number of air to air combats in this area was very low.
The A6M3 comes into it because the test clearly shows that the Spitfire V was clearly inferior to the A6M3 at the altitudes that the combats in Burma often happened. As a result to believe that the Hurricane was better than the Zero would mean the Hurricane was better than the Spit V which it clearly wasn't.
This limitation in the boost allowed to the Spitfire isn't mentioned and to be honest lacks logic, why would the allies limit the boost used. If you have a link that shows the test in more detail I would appreciate it.
Plus the IIB/C underwing hardpoints and stores and trop filters.
Neither one of those statements are true.
There were quite a few "obsolete" Japanese types in use to the end of, and after, the war in the CBI theater.To be fair though, I think there were still a few Ki-27 around, at least in Burma or China, for a bit longer.
And the last Claude combat missions in Pacific were flown in May/1942 (source: Claringbould/South Pacific Air War, vols.2 & 3)
But per the original debate - that doesn't really balance out ~300 some odd biplanes, flying-boat bombers, open cockpit fighters, cloth covered trimotors etc. that were supposedly far more deadly than the entire IJN fleet and naval air forces arm, and yet launched multiple strikes against a British convoy that resulted in "no damage".
Now, who said " that were supposedly far more deadly than the entire IJN fleet and naval air forces arm.."? The fact is that the IJNAF had a large number of obsolescent aircraft in service in 1942.
Also the " '300' some odd biplanes, flying-boat bombers, open cockpit fighters, cloth covered trimotors etc.." is a bit of a strange statement given that you've already admitted that many of these were just as capable as the IJN front line TE bombers, and I've pointed out the utility of other aircraft for recon, ASW and ASR.