Corsair vs Zero

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

I can easily agree with that. If the impression I got from reading the whole thread was similar, I'd never register and respond.

Better radios make sense to me. Soviet pilots praised American radios very much. They were good.
The forum is an aviation forum, discussion of individual aircraft strength and weaknesses are what it is for and what it does. You can produce an account to support almost anything, a plane was shot down with a revolver, no one would suggest it was a sound armament strategy though. The A/C designer must give the pilot the best chance of making a kill in the highest number of situations, and the best chance of surviving and landing safely.

Better radios are one thing, having no radio at all in any aircraft is a disaster waiting to happen.
 
Spec-sheets have been done to death. The numbers are known, even if often misunderstood. The only practical test of how those numbers related to reality is forbidden topic here. What else remains but concentrating on combat reports?

When a Corsair pilot writes that he was incredibly surprised at the ease with which the Japanese leader reversed on them, then it's telling something which can be hard to figure out from bare numbers. When another pilot writes to newspaper readers that they can beat the Zero, because Japanese pilots are badly trained, cowardly and short sighted that's also telling something.

Perfect? No. Nothing ever is perfect, though.
 
When a Corsair pilot writes that he was incredibly surprised at the ease with which the Japanese leader reversed on them, then it's telling something which can be hard to figure out from bare numbers.
One of the greatest strengths of any fighting unit is learning from your mistakes and those of others. The US airforces constantly improved training and tactics to maximise the times they had the advantages and minimise the times they didnt. Pilots reporting how a Zero reversed on them would be asked how it happened what did they do, what could be done better what should not be ever done, that is how you get to grips with an enemy.

By this the effectiveness of the whole unit slowly improved and this coupled with its ever increasing size overwhelmed both the LW and IJN forces. By wars end the Japanese and Germans had very few top class pilots left.
 
Spec-sheets have been done to death. The numbers are known, even if often misunderstood. The only practical test of how those numbers related to reality is forbidden topic here.

Is it?!?!? There are many documented encounters between allied aircraft and the Zero and it's performance was well documented, some of those reports praised the Zero (VMF-211 over Midway) and other condemned it (475th Fighter Group, SW Pacific) so spare us the sarcasm. If you took the time to read some of the posts here you'll find a pretty even assessment of ALL WW2 aircraft, and although some may have their bias, I think discussions here about the Zero (as well as other Japanese aircraft) are discussed fairly and accuracy. History shows us that the Zero was indeed a deadly dogfighter at about 250 mph, and could be a deadly opponent anytime encountered, up to the end of the war, however due to tactics and pilot skills, it was all but swept from the skies, I think the end result of WW2 more than verifies this. Later model Zeros were an improvement but were too little too late.
 
Last edited:
I earlier posted a first-hand account by an Ace who successfully flew against the A6M and it was brushed off. This is real world advice coming from a man who's actions against the Japanese was life or death. One mistake would mean failure resulting in death, injury or swimming.

These are the best possible means of determining how well the Allied or Axis planes performed. There were a great deal more pilots, who's opinions couldn't be shared, because they made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for that error.

When a captured A6M5 was flown in trials against the F6F, the summary was as follows:
Now perhaps it could be said that this trial may have been flawed because it did not have a Japanese pilot, however, all pilots (Allied or Axis) will have similar abilities and one objective, to kill and avoid being killed.

And again, 2Lt. Walsh, an Ace with VMF-124 shared his experience with his A6M encounters while flying the F4U:
And he was there, he lived to tell about his engagements. He was also awarded the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished Flying Cross among other achievements. So I would take his advice very seriously.

You can compare charts, numbers, statistics and such all day long, but in the end, it's what the Pilots themselves have to say, that holds any weight.

bakters, I want you to follow this link An afternoon with Saburo Sakai and see the words of Saburo Sakai and pay attention to what he says. If there was ever a human being that would hold the true secret of the A6M, it would be this man. Think about his experience, so when he makes a comment like:
putting a kid with only about 20 hours flight time into a plane and telling him to take on U.S. pilots in Hellcats and Corsairs is just as much a suicidal tactic as being a kamikaze
He is not quoting charts, tables or any other source...he was there.
 
Bottom line, the F4U claimed an 11 to 1 kill ratio during WW2. In the book Vought F4U Corsair by Martin W. Bowman; it shows that there were only 189 F4Us lost to enemy fighters while claiming 2,140. I have not found information on what the exact F4U to Zero ratio is but even if it's embedded in those numbers its obvious that the F4U was clearly superior to the Zero.

More on the Zero including the assessment of the Aleutian Zero.

Koga's Zero | Texas Flying Legends Museum
 
On actual combat from 1943 perspective, so when tides were turning I'd recommend getting this :




It's of course in Japanese so few here may actually read the contents, but there are tables that should be easy to decipher even with google translate. It also contains a lot of lesser known pictures. I mention this specifically because of F4U ( along with P-38 ) and Zero battled over Solomon Islands throughout 1943 which is a great base to draw some conclusions.
 
Last edited:
The only practical test of how those numbers related to reality is forbidden topic here.

that is because the flight models you are basing your experience and conclusions on are biased, flawed, and in a lot of cases completely erroneous. spread sheets and performance reports give the best snap shot of what it was like back then. the mods have warned of taking gaming here so I wont say anything more than I am well versed in Gaijin flight models and antics ( since 2009 )....and will converse via PM about this if you wish....or you can open a thread in the gaming section here and we can talk openly.
 
Claimed victories to real losses? Against rookie pilots sent on one-way missions? While often having overwhelming numerical and tactical superiority?

No, it's not obvious which plane was a better dogfighter.
 
bakters, did you read my post (#486) which contained the link to the the interview with Saburu Sakai??

I never exactly understood how did this interview was done and what was the quality of person translating but in many points it contradicts what we know from "Samurai", "Winged Samurai" or "Genda's Blade". Hell, I even have Combat Flight Simulator 2 manual which except for all game details contains crucial here interviews with Allied veterans as well as interview with S. Sakai. No such language was used as in interview posted above.

Things that especially caught my attention :
Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].
First, I honestly dont believe that Sakai would call someone, especially his superior an idiot. After the war he became rather a peaceful Buddhist acolyte and such words simply dont fit. Other thing is that I doubt Sakai was unaware of the Gendas flight experience and skill, Genda was one of the best pre-war pilots of ww2 and along with his wingmen they created a feared formation known as "Genda's Flying Circus".
Last is the Kawanishi N1K2-J, while N1K1-J indeed had multiple issues, lot of that has been corrected in N1K2-J. Reading through multiple accounts, most of them written post war so there was no pressure from former leaders or military itself, aircraft was praised for its handling and firepower. Again it had its flaws, but calling it a piece of crap.


There are too many things that contradict each other, that I only would recommend reading this along with other books or interviews to get more clear view.
 
I did not take notes nor use a tape recorder during our conversation, and these "quotes" are paraphrased by myself to the best of my memory. Please do not repeat them or attribute them to Sakai-san in any published forum.

Edit: It appeared to me, since the interviewer didn't take notes or recorded anything, Sakai could have been more honest here...
 
Last edited:
I did not take notes nor use a tape recorder during our conversation, and these "quotes" are paraphrased by myself to the best of my memory. Please do not repeat them or attribute them to Sakai-san in any published forum.

That is a bit logically contradiction, you take the interview to present view and ideas of a person you are interviewing in his own words. But anyway, I managed to dig my CFS 2 manual (which is a beautiful thing, a testament how much some people cared about making their products) and here is an interview with Saburo Sakai, it is supplied by much bigger one that was available on Microsoft website 15 years ago. I am that kind of person that copies and saves everything since internet is not a book, things may disappear and they do, even as most say otherwise.
Interview was under this link Object moved
It was done by Michael Ahn, and please keep in mind that it was related to a game hence some questions and answers are directed towards those who will play it, but I still find it very informative and showing certain perspective.

PART 1
 
Part 2
 
Part 3
 
Claimed victories to real losses?
As you become more educated here you'll learn that there is much discussion about claims vs. actual kills. It is well know that ALL sides overclaimed aerial victories
Against rookie pilots sent on one-way missions? While often having overwhelming numerical and tactical superiority?
Not always the case - look at the F4U's operational record when it first saw combat - the first squadrons who flew it encountered some excellent pilots from both the IJN and JAAF.
No, it's not obvious which plane was a better dogfighter.

The F4U had the better war record and could out maneuver the Zero in certain tactical situations but the important points are pilot skill and training and eventually the allied forces fielded both.
 

Users who are viewing this thread