Could the Luftwaffe covered Bismarck?

Admiral Beez · Dec 12, 2022

When Admiral Lütjens broke radio silence, allowing Bismarck's heretofore lost pursuers to renew the chase, Bismarck was closing for France. When HMS Ark Royal's Swordfish made their critical rudder hit, Bismarck was about 300 nautical miles (560 km; 350 mi) west of Brest, France. Was it possible for the Luftwaffe to provide fighter cover?

Per Wikipedia, at max cruise the Bf 110 had a range of only 460 nautical miles. So, it would have been a one way trip. Were there other aircraft, perhaps a Ju 88 fighter variant? Ark Royal won't be expecting fighter cover, so her Fulmars might not show.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 12, 2022

If I recall correctly production heavy fighter variants Ju 88 were not quite in operation. A small batch of converted pre-production variants were operational at the invasion of Poland but thats pretty much it.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

GrauGeist · Dec 12, 2022

The Luftwaffe could have dispatched Do17s and Fw200s to provide assistance in the form of harassing the RN's warships.

Either aircraft could have easily caught a Swordfish, too.

Shortround6 · Dec 12, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
Per Wikipedia, at max cruise the Bf 110 had a range of only 460 nautical miles.

Quit using Wikipedia unless you double check it.
Nobody was going to fly around for an hour and 1/2 at max cruise.

A Bf 110C could do around 680 miles at economical cruise clean, which is pushing things. very little time on station or reserve.
However there some Bf 110Ds around (without the horrible belly tanks) that would hold a pair of 66imp gal drop tanks or even a pair of 198 Imp gal drop tanks.
Question is if any were around at the time or if all of them had flown off to the eastern/Mediterranean fronts (some of the Long Ranges Ds were used in May in Iraq).

300NM from Brest is only about 345nm from Plymouth and about 50miles less from Lands end.
The RAF had started issuing Beaufighters to CC in April but that squadron was based in Malta.

100NM west of Brest is about 160 NM from Plymouth.

Basically the British could also have put a lot of not very suitable aircraft in area.

FW 200 vs Martin Marylander?

GrauGeist · Dec 13, 2022

The Do17Z was still in France and the low countries at the time and the Fw200 was conducting Atlantic maritime patrols, so either could have been made available.

WARSPITER · Dec 13, 2022

Any German aircraft would have had to fly outside / around British fighter range in the first place.

They would also have to find Bismark and/or the RN units to be able to make themselves useful.

The JU-88 fighter variant which had been used in Poland was indeed very thin on the ground and
was different to later production aircraft which retained the gondola and were modified on the
production line as needed. Numbers were very low so probably a non starter anyway.

Condors and Dorniers could have been sent but whether they could keep the RN at bay to give Bismarck
time to escape is highly doubtful.

Macandy · Dec 13, 2022

GrauGeist · Dec 13, 2022

WARSPITER said:
Any German aircraft would have had to fly outside / around British fighter range in the first place.

The Luftwaffe bases on the eastern coast of France could largely operate without interference by British fighters, though there would have been the chance of encountering British multi-engine patrol aircraft.

Admiral Beez · Dec 14, 2022

Macandy said:
no

I think you're right. How close does Bismarck need to get for Luftwaffe cover to be feasible? Even with a list and tons of flooding onboard Bismarck was apparently running for Brest at over 25 knots. Had Lutjen's maintained radio silence or the FAA been less lucky and not disabled her rudder, Bismarck would be over a hundred miles closer to Brest in four hours time.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 14, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
I think you're right. How close does Bismarck need to get for Luftwaffe cover to be feasible? Even with a list and tons of flooding onboard Bismarck was apparently running for Brest at over 25 knots. Had Lutjen's maintained radio silence or the FAA been less lucky and not disabled her rudder, Bismarck would be over a hundred miles closer to Brest in four hours time.

Expect a one word response back… ;

ARTESH · Dec 14, 2022

Actually, that was a question for me, too!

Admiral Beez · Dec 14, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Expect a one word response back… ;

True. "Closer" might suffice

Macandy · Dec 15, 2022

At best, the Luftwaffe might have got a few JU-88's or Fw200's over the scene - and, the ability of the Luftwaffe to interfere with Royal Navy warships able to operate at speed, with searoom to freely manoeuvre was 'limited' to put it politely.

End game : Bismarck still get sunk, but now with some Luftwaffe happy snaps to record the event.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 15, 2022

Macandy said:
At best, the Luftwaffe might have got a few JU-88's or Fw200's over the scene - and, the ability of the Luftwaffe to interfere with Royal Navy warships able to operate at speed, with searoom to freely manoeuvre was 'limited' to put it politely.

End game : Bismarck still get sunk, but now with some Luftwaffe happy snaps to record the event.

What if they found Force H rather than Bismarck? Do Swordfish poke holes in the rudder?

Admiral Beez · Dec 15, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
What if they found Force H rather than Bismarck?

That would be something. Fw200 spots HMS Ark Royal to the south of Bismarck, reports back to base, likely pursued by Fulmars. A half dozen torpedo-armed JU-88s are sent out to attack the carrier. If those rudder-jamming Swordfish can be stopped, Bismarck will make it Brest, joining the repairing Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Lutzow and soon to arrive Prinz Eugen.

And then what? Bismarck along with the four heavies above will become target #1 for RAF Bomber Command. A non-lethal torpedo hit in May 1941 on Ark Royal might allow her to escape being sunk off Gibraltar that November.

FLYBOYJ · Dec 15, 2022

Remember folks - there wasn't much cooperation between Goring and Dönitz.

Conduct of War at Sea

[Unclassified] Restricted DIVISION OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE 15 January 1946 NAVY DEPARTMENT, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Washington 25, D.C. 1. Admiral Doenitz' essay on the Conduct of the War at Sea is published by ONI for several reasons. It has historical significance as a review...

www.history.navy.mil

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 15, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
That would be something. Fw200 spots HMS Ark Royal to the south of Bismarck, reports back to base, likely pursued by Fulmars. A half dozen torpedo-armed JU-88s are sent out to attack the carrier. If those rudder-jamming Swordfish can be stopped, Bismarck will make it Brest, joining the repairing Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Lutzow and soon to arrive Prinz Eugen.

And then what? Bismarck along with the four heavies above will become target #1 for RAF Bomber Command. A non-lethal torpedo hit in May 1941 on Ark Royal might allow her to escape being sunk off Gibraltar that November.

Yeah, the ripples go in all directions. But the German ships are still going to be bombed mercilessly, as in actual timeline.

WARSPITER · Dec 15, 2022

FLYBOYJ said:
Remember folks - there wasn't much cooperation between Goring and Dönitz.

Conduct of War at Sea

[Unclassified] Restricted DIVISION OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE 15 January 1946 NAVY DEPARTMENT, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Washington 25, D.C. 1. Admiral Doenitz' essay on the Conduct of the War at Sea is published by ONI for several reasons. It has historical significance as a review...

www.history.navy.mil

This is an important point. Due to the rivalry for resources and lack of cooperation little emphasis was given to a luftwaffe torpedo bomber
other than older biplane types until 1941. Heinkel 111 and JU-88's were not modified to carry torpedoes until early 1942. There was no possibility
of sending a twin engine torpedo delivery plane that far out to attack the British ships because there was no twin engined plane available that could
do it. Probably why they didn't.

Shortround6 · Dec 15, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
That would be something. Fw200 spots HMS Ark Royal to the south of Bismarck, reports back to base, likely pursued by Fulmars. A half dozen torpedo-armed JU-88s are sent out to attack the carrier. If those rudder-jamming Swordfish can be stopped, Bismarck will make it Brest, joining the repairing Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Lutzow and soon to arrive Prinz Eugen.

This assumes you actually had Ju-88s with torpedoes. One source says the Ju-88 didn't start using torpedoes until 1942.
Assumes Ju-88s in small numbers can actually hit the carrier and or assumes the British AA was as ineffective as the Bismarck.
Warspiter was faster

WARSPITER · Dec 15, 2022

Shortround6 said:
This assumes you actually had Ju-88s with torpedoes. One source says the Ju-88 didn't start using torpedoes until 1942.
Assumes Ju-88s in small numbers can actually hit the carrier and or assumes the British AA was as ineffective as the Bismarck.
Warspiter was faster

I was typing downhill....

Could the Luftwaffe covered Bismarck?

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