Could the Luftwaffe covered Bismarck?

So KG40's Do217s aren't a consideration?

And KG40 worked closely with the Kreigsmarine, especially in directing U-Boats to convoys.

GrauGeist said:

So KG40's Do217s aren't a consideration?

And KG40 worked closely with the Kreigsmarine, especially in directing U-Boats to convoys.

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History of KG40 and its various elements here including bases.

Shortround6 said:

This assumes you actually had Ju-88s with torpedoes. One source says the Ju-88 didn't start using torpedoes until 1942.
Assumes Ju-88s in small numbers can actually hit the carrier and or assumes the British AA was as ineffective as the Bismarck.
Warspiter was faster

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-88s could dive bomb. Holing the AR's deck is a mission kill depending on where the hit is.

On the other hand, that saves Sheffield a little headache.

The first He 111 unit (with He 111 H-6 Torp aircraft), I./KG26, didn't begin training in the torpedo role until Jan 1942, followed by II./KG26.

The first Ju88 torpedo unit was III./KG26 formed in May 1942.

Before that the only torpedo aircraft in the Luftwaffe inventory was the He115 seaplane. But only 30 of the torpedo carrying He115C-4 were built and it didn't enter service until May 1941.

As for Ark Royal, remember she was a lucky ship (at least until her luck ran out in Nov 1941). How many times did the Germans claim to have sunk her!

More importantly were the weather conditions which were appalling. The cloud base was very low and icing conditions bad. So if they could penetrate the weather to reach the area, even with homing assistance from Bismarck, dive bombers would be dependent on finding gaps in the cloud to deliver their loads from height. That leaves level bombing from relatively low levels, against a ship target moving unpredictably in heavy seas before its manoeuvres complicate things further.

So Ark doesn't make for an easy target.

Ark Royal had 4 as built and two more these showing up during/before 1941.

each single barrel could fire more shells than three 37mm barrels on the Bismarck. To put it another way, 3 barrels out of the 8 could put out more shells than all the 37mm guns on one side of the Bismarck. Each 2pdr barrel had 140 rounds. Any German attack, unless simultaneous, going to face 2-4 of these mounts depending on direction.

The 40mm Bofors was the gold standard gun in this class, we maybe arguing over who had the Bonze, British or Italy. Everybody else was fighting it out for wood or cardboard.

The Ark Royal, arguably had the best light AA suite in the world at the time. A Fraction of what would be on some ships in 1944-45 but in 1941? Six mounts that could each fire just about 800rpm.

What were the cloud conditions again in the area? Using Ju-88s to dive bomb through clouds?

Early example of FFBNW (fitted for but not with)!

Designed for 6 octuple Pom Pom the last pair were not added on the port side until June 1941. All those on the starboard side we're capable of firing across the flight deck if necessary.

She also had 8 twin 4.5" and 8 quad 0.5" MG (2 mounts on each corner). So plenty of ability to put a lot of "lead" in the air.

On the day of Ark's successful strike on Bismarck the Swordfish departed the carrier in a Force 6 wind (22-27 knots) from the north west, heavy three quarter cloud cover with base around 700-1,000ft. Icing at 6.600-7,000ft forced them lower.

Shortround6 said:

Ark Royal had 4 as built and two more these showing up during/before 1941.
View attachment 698726
each single barrel could fire more shells than three 37mm barrels on the Bismarck. To put it another way, 3 barrels out of the 8 could put out more shells than all the 37mm guns on one side of the Bismarck. Each 2pdr barrel had 140 rounds. Any German attack, unless simultaneous, going to face 2-4 of these mounts depending on direction.

The 40mm Bofors was the gold standard gun in this class, we maybe arguing over who had the Bonze, British or Italy. Everybody else was fighting it out for wood or cardboard.

The Ark Royal, arguably had the best light AA suite in the world at the time. A Fraction of what would be on some ships in 1944-45 but in 1941? Six mounts that could each fire just about 800rpm.

What were the cloud conditions again in the area? Using Ju-88s to dive bomb through clouds?

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Yet that same month the RN took a beating off'n Crete even with AA cruisers. Granted, facing much heavier attacks than LW could mount a few hundred miles from France, but the state of naval AA at that time was primitive, to put it kindly. How practiced were those gun-crews?

The weather is a fair objection when coupled with the lack of torpedoes on LW Ju-88s. I hadn't considered that. But even the threat could perhaps make Force H work around differently?

Thumpalumpacus said:

Yet that same month the RN took a beating off'n Crete even with AA cruisers. Granted, facing much heavier attacks than LW could mount a few hundred miles from France, but the state of naval AA at that time was primitive, to put it kindly. How practiced were those gun-crews?

The weather is a fair objection when coupled with the lack of torpedoes on LW Ju-88s. I hadn't considered that. But even the threat could perhaps make Force H work around differently?

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A lot of the British ships sunk off Crete were only sunk after repeated attacks and they were hundreds of miles away from spare ammo.
many of the cruisers had a pair of quads,
You are quite right, the state of Naval AA was primitive but also varied quite a bit.
There were four AA cruisers.
Two of the Dido's which had 3 quad 2pdrs. for close in, the 5.25s guns are a bit slow firing.
The two old C class, as modernized in 1939 had a single quad 2pdr, the eight 4in guns were useful but since you could find 6-8 on some sloops they were hardy earth shattering.
The two modern 6in cruisers had the near standard cruiser fit of eight 4in AA guns but only 2 quad 2pdrs (1 one each side)
Some of the older destroyers may have had few small upgrades, I hope so as their as built pair of quad 0.5MGs needed an upgrade just to reach primitive.
The BB Valiant had 10 twin 4.5in mounts much like the Ark Royal had, but is noted as having 4 quad 2pdrs and note the quad mounts?

The Ark Royal was certainly not invulnerable but she had better chance than just about any other ship in the RN at the time. The low cloud was going to force most/all of the attacks to be in 2pdr range.
The Germans may have been able to pull it off but not with 6-8 aircraft.
Crete resulted in new "rule" in the RN. Ships with less than 40% AA ammo left in the magazines were pulled from operations for replenishment.

Shortround6 said:

The low cloud was going to force most/all of the attacks to be in 2pdr range.
The Germans may have been able to pull it off but not with 6-8 aircraft.

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Agreed that 6-8 attacking under low cloud cover would have chances ranging from slim to none. As noted earlier, I hadn't considered weather conditions in my what-if, so dispense with it as you see fit. Air attacks probably won't happen at all if it's 9/10 cloud with a 1000' base, just too hard to find Force H at that point, much less attack it.

Was there any thought to (before the rudder hit) sortieing Scharnhorst and Gniesenau from Brest to support Bismarck and Prinz Eugen? Lutzow was busted up.

There should have been a coordinated attack by area U-Boats, to be honest.

With the foul weather, no ASW and would be difficult to spot periscopes.

At the very least, would have sent the pusuing RN fleet into defensive measures, buying Bismarck some time to increase the distance of separation.

One does wonder if a few Btitish submarines were lurking about considering what they did to the Kriegsmarine off Norway the year before.

Looks liKe I got an answer to my U-Boat question, here:

There was an attempt to set up a line of U-boats nearer to Greenland to catch Prince of Wales and her escorts should they
go after Bismarck. The damage of assessment from Prince of Wales hits on Bismark precluded this idea as Bismark
needed to get back for repairs.

There were thoughts of getting U-boats to a defence line for Bismark as she headed for France but boats were too far away
to get there and to keep a defence line would have had to run on the surface anyway thus losing the submarines biggest
advantage. Submarines in French ports were mainly there for maintenance or resupply and were not ready to come out and
play. Far too slow submerged to keep up at all and sitting ducks on the surface with a low speed as well.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were of no use at the time as well. Gneisenau had been damaged by an aerial torpedo and was
under repair while Scharnhorst was having more repairs to her propulsion system due to performance problems.

Bismark was a convoy raider and was meant to do the same job as U-boats.
The incompatibility of type meant these two could not work together without negating each others strengths so they had to
work independently.

Speed was Bismarks strength when all was well but it's weakness when there were problems. The two hits from Prince of Wales
had already slowed Bismark and caused a mission kill before the torpedo hit.

Did the RAF have any capability for intercepting and attacking the Bismarck as it returned to France?

wuzak said:

Did the RAF have any capability for intercepting and attacking the Bismarck as it returned to France?

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My first thought would be a Sunderland, but considering the weather at the time, it seems that both Coastal Command and the Luftwaffe were grounded.

They had planes (bombers) but finding the Bismarck in those weather conditions would be iffy even with a ship providing guidance. Getting hits may be difficult to as the regular bombsight didn't work that low.
If the Bismark had broken contact per haps radar equipped air craft could have found her and guided others. Things were a lot iffier in 1941 than later.

Shortround6 said:

A lot of the British ships sunk off Crete were only sunk after repeated attacks and they were hundreds of miles away from spare ammo.
many of the cruisers had a pair of quads,
You are quite right, the state of Naval AA was primitive but also varied quite a bit.
There were four AA cruisers.
Two of the Dido's which had 3 quad 2pdrs. for close in, the 5.25s guns are a bit slow firing.

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There were 3 Didos present during operations off Crete in May 1941. When the first of these ships were completing in 1940, there were delays producing the 5.25" turrets. As a result Dido received a single 4" gun in place of Q turret (and Bonaventure already lost by time of Crete a 4" in place of X turret) while Phoebe received a quad Pom Pom in the same position. Naiad got the intended 5 turrets. The normal fit at the time was 2 quad Pom Pom and two quad 0.5"

As the war went on these ships had their AA substantially upgraded to include more AA weapons, gaining extra quad Pom Pom / Bofors and Oerlikons.

Shortround6 said:

The two old C class, as modernized in 1939 had a single quad 2pdr, the eight 4in guns were useful but since you could find 6-8 on some sloops they were hardy earth shattering.

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The 2 C class AA conversions were not identical.

Coventry was one of the first pair of conversions in 1937 as a quick reaction to the experience of the Abyssinian Crisis. 10 single 4" (recycled from other Battleships and cruisers who were having their AA upgraded in the mid/late 1930s) with 2 HA.DCT. An octuple Pom Pom and a pair of quad 0.5"

Calcutta was one of 4 later conversions with 4 twin 4" again controlled by 2 HA.DCT, a quad Pom Pom and pair of 0.5"

Although, like the sloops, intended to operate as convoy escorts, the advantage these ships had was speed which allowed them to operate with the fleet and better, though still inadequate, main armament fire control.

Shortround6 said:

The two modern 6in cruisers had the near standard cruiser fit of eight 4in AA guns but only 2 quad 2pdrs (1 one each side)

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While 2 modern 6" cruisers were lost off Crete (Gloucester & Fiji both of which also had a pair of quad 0.5") more were present at various times and suffered damage. Ajax, Orion, Perth (RAN) all with 4 twin 4" but differing light AA fits.

Shortround6 said:

Some of the older destroyers may have had few small upgrades, I hope so as their as built pair of quad 0.5MGs needed an upgrade just to reach primitive.

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By the time of Crete virtually all had had a set of torpedo tubes replaced by a single 3" (A-I classes) or 4" (J and later classes) or a twin 4" in the Tribals in place of a twin 4.7" and the single 20mm Oerlikon was beginning to make an appearance in some ships. This "upgrade" started mid-1940 after the Norway campaign. While inadequate it was the best available at the time.

While the 20mm Oerlikon had been ordered pre-war from the Swiss manufacturer, supplies were disrupted from June 1940 so only about 100 out of an order for 1,500 had been delivered. A licence for U.K. production had also been obtained in 1940, but it took a while to get it started, so it was spring 1941 before it began to become available in quantity.

Shortround6 said:

The BB Valiant had 10 twin 4.5in mounts much like the Ark Royal had, but is noted as having 4 quad 2pdrs and note the quad mounts?

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The 4.5" mounts in Valiant (and QE, Renown and the Illustrious class) were fully enclosed between decks mounts. Those in Ark Royal were of an earlier open backed upper deck mount.

Valiant Pom poms were octuple mounts. And again there were quad 0.5" (4 mounts).

Shortround6 said:

The Ark Royal was certainly not invulnerable but she had better chance than just about any other ship in the RN at the time. The low cloud was going to force most/all of the attacks to be in 2pdr range.
The Germans may have been able to pull it off but not with 6-8 aircraft.
Crete resulted in new "rule" in the RN. Ships with less than 40% AA ammo left in the magazines were pulled from operations for replenishment.

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While British ships attract much criticism for their poor light AA outfits in the early part of WW2, it should be remembered that they were probably the best in the world in 1939. At the same time the US had the quad 1.1" and single water cooled 0.5" as its standard AA weapons.

So, just by way of example, while Britain designed the King George V class battleship in 1936 with 4 octuple Pom poms and 4 quad 0.5", the US designed the North Carolina class around 4 quad 1.1" and 18 single 0.5".

As noted, Britain had ordered the 20mm Oerlikon pre-war and also, in 1937, the 40mm Bofors. It also obtained a licence to produce the latter but some redesign proved necessary before mass production could begin. Over 200 had been produced by Sept 1939 but the army had first call on them. A few did reach the RN in 1941, Prince of Wakes carrying one when she went to the Far East.

It was mid-1940 before the USA really began to take a serious interest in either weapon. But again redesign and creating the manufacturing capacity, delayed the introduction of these weapons. It was June 1941 before the first Oerlikon was delivered to the USN and less than 400 were produced in 1941 (out of an eventual total of nearly 125,000). It was Jan and April 1942 before the USN got its hands on the first twin and quad water cooled Bofors for shipboard use, and July before the twin began arriving in the US fleet.

So despite the huge AA batteries US ships in the late War period are remembered for, would the USN have fared any better off Crete in May 1941?

wuzak said:

Did the RAF have any capability for intercepting and attacking the Bismarck as it returned to France?

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The RAF had 3 Beaufort torpedo bomber squadrons by May 1941 (22, 42 & 217). But these had to cover the area from Cornwall to the north of Scotland, so often flights operated away from the squadron main bases. Not sure offhand where they were all based in May 1941 but some were certainly in southern England.

Using Bomber Command would have been a waste of time requiring a lucky hit with a 2.000lb AP bomb to do any real damage.

On 6th April 1941, 22 squadron had attacked Gneisenau in Brest harbour and succeeded in torpedoing her. The pilot responsible was killed but won a VC for his efforts.

GrauGeist said:

My first thought would be a Sunderland, but considering the weather at the time, it seems that both Coastal Command and the Luftwaffe were grounded.

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Coastal Command were flying. It was a Catalina of 209 squadron, flying from Castle Archdale in Northern Ireland that found Bismarck again on 26th May after the RN ships had lost contact some 30 hours previously.