Did the LW need more armor?

Tante Ju · May 16, 2013

zjtins said:
Way off track but how? The USSR was is BIG. Much of the commerce and production was beyond the Urals (T-34 production was moved there when the war started).
The number of German soldiers per square mile would be far less than any occupied country. So how to conquer it let alone keep it?

The GPW was a close run thing. Soviet-Russia may have been enormous in size, but there virtually nobody living there beyond the Urals. Its (more-or-less) just vast empty space. No industry, no people. Even that the Germans only conquered a part of European Russia, that part already contained about 45% of the population, and even more of the industrialized territories. They have also conquered vital agricultural areas and some parts that were the most rich in strategic minerals (located mostly in Ukraine).

zjtins · May 17, 2013

But with the US supporting and shipping huge quantities of material. And who is to say withe USSR falling they would not have called the US into help and we said troops from the east to help fight!.

And the longer the distance from Germany the longer the supply trains which eventually proved insufficient for what they did conquer.

Coyote · May 17, 2013

I believe the biggest thing the LW needed was not armor, it was a more modern fighter in 1943-45. The 109 started and ended the war as a front line fighter. While it was still good in 1945, it should have been supplemented/replaced much sooner. Think about that, the allies added the Tempest, P-38, P-47,P-51, Yak-9, LA-7, just to name some. All the while the LW added the 190D and Me-262. Yes they had updated versions of the 109, but those could not compare to more modern designs.

altsym · May 18, 2013

Coyote said:
Yes they had updated versions of the BF 109, but those could not compare to more modern designs.

How so? And compared to what? All fighters in WWII had there advantages/disadvantages against other fighters. Even the grand daddy
of them all, BF 109 VS P-51, both had advantages/disadvantages when dogfighting. Or maybe your comparing to the Spitfire Mk XIV?
How many of those were flying around the ETO? The Spit came out roughly the same time as the BF 109, yet nobody call the various
versions of the Spit outdated by 1945. Not being argumentative here, just curious as to this line of thinking.

And yes Germany brought out potential 'game changers (FW 190's, Me 262's, TA's, etc.) ', but albeit to late and in not enough numbers.

riacrato · May 18, 2013

The yak-line (-1, -7,-9) is essentially like the Bf 109: one continuous line of development. You could.probably even make a strong case here for the yak 3.
Same goes for the La(GG).

Which also makes the Bf 109 only the second most produced fighter of all time.

Coyote · May 18, 2013

altsym said:
How so? And compared to what? All fighters in WWII had there advantages/disadvantages against other fighters. Even the grand daddy
of them all, BF 109 VS P-51, both had advantages/disadvantages when dogfighting. Or maybe your comparing to the Spitfire Mk XIV?
How many of those were flying around the ETO? The Spit came out roughly the same time as the BF 109, yet nobody call the various
versions of the Spit outdated by 1945. Not being argumentative here, just curious as to this line of thinking.

And yes Germany brought out potential 'game changers (FW 190's, Me 262's, TA's, etc.) ', but albeit to late and in not enough numbers.

The 109 was still a good fighter. But in equal numbers was outclassed by the P-47/P-51/Tempest/Spits and late war Russian fighters. The Germans needed a "game changer" early in '44. Thats my point. Then you take into account the LW was out numbered and lost most of their better pilots, the LW didn't stand a chance.

zjtins · May 20, 2013

r maybe your comparing to the Spitfire Mk XIV?
How many of those were flying around the ETO? The Spit came out roughly the same time as the BF 109, yet nobody call the various
versions of the Spit outdated by 1945. Not being argumentative here, just curious as to this line of thinking.

Actually I would. The Spit could not carry 4x 20mm effectively the Brits dropped that version it in favor of 2x20mm and other supporting guns.
It could not out dive much of anything (in that time frame). Range was on the order of an ME-109 so when the Spit was on the offensive it was limited to a few minutes of combat exactly like the ME109 was during BoB.

The Brits were experimenting with several large engine type fight/fight bombers. I do not have any numbers but quite frankly except for the Med I do not recall much of any significant contribution by Spits by say early 1943. That does not make is a bad plane, there were simply better planes around 1943 on, both P51D and P47D as examples.

zjtins · May 20, 2013

I believe the biggest thing the LW needed was not armor, it was a more modern fighter in 1943-45. The 109 started and ended the war as a front line fighter. While it was still good in 1945, it should have been supplemented/replaced much sooner. Think about that, the allies added the Tempest, P-38, P-47,P-51, Yak-9, LA-7, just to name some. All the while the LW added the 190D and Me-262. Yes they had updated versions of the 109, but those could not compare to more modern designs.

I believe the Germans recognized this but did not have a replacement in numbers. The FW190D and TA154 were there but in low numbers. Again the introduction of a replacement for the 109 interrupt the 109 production, the Germans chose ME109 mods instead.

Tante Ju · May 20, 2013

I struggle to find a reason how the Fw 190D was a 'game changer' compared to the 109K... apart from having a much better post-war Allied press.

altsym · May 20, 2013

I agree that the BF 109K was a very good aircraft in all aspects. I could imagine 100's of 109K's flying top cover for 100's of D-13's doing bomber intercepts during 1944.

zjtins · May 20, 2013

FW190D vs ME109K
range 520 miles vs 350
vision, FW190 bubble hood vs late model 109 hood
guns 2x20mm , 2x13mm vs 1x 20mm (or 30mm) vs 2x13mm
Both had 'limited range' but the 190 had enough difference to make it a useful difference.
The extra 20mm on the 190 I argue was useful but the 30mm was not. It meant the convergences of the 13mm and 30mm was very different (vs 20mm nearly the same). And the advantage of the center line armament was nearly wiped out with nearly to center line of the 2x20mm of the 190
The visual lines of the ME109 we still very limited but the bubble 190 was about as good as any.

But the real difference in handling. Above around 350 mph the 109 was hard to control except side to side via pedals. The 190 had a more stick authority and boost to drive the control surfaces and still had one of the highest roll rates of all fighters.

However game changer is a very strong description for any plane and I do not think the FW190D qualified, based strictly on performance gain to a good pilot, I would only call the ME262 a game changer, maybe the P-38 in the Pacific or Zero in 1941-early 42.

Did the LW need more armor?

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