Did the LW need more armor?

[Denniss]

Small problem: The R2 had no additional armor, it just had the Mk 108 outer-wing cannon, R7 was the armored variant without gun change, R8 with MK 108 and armor. The A-8 did not have the 801 TS power-egg as this would be an A-9 then.
The attached 11/44 Focke-Wulf doc gives 248.8kg armor weight, compared to 137.8 for the initial A-8 and 165.3 for the A-8 with 801 TU power-egg.

 

[Erich]

spoken with several Sturm pilots the R2 and R8 were the same crate except the R8 had armored leading edges on the wings and under engine cowling and an armored nose ring. Scheuklappen were removed from JG 4 and JG 300 A/C due to icing, Sturm JG 3 kept the plexiglas protectors on till all 3 Sturm units went in for the last battles for Berlin after January 15, 1945. in all it has mentioned and I feel it was more than the additional weight of 500 lbs, enough to blast US 4-engines out of the sky as well has British heavies but fighter vs fighter they were going to lose en-masse.

 

[davebender]

Halftrack vehicles
9,000 x Sd.Kfz.2 Kettenkraftrad.
13,960 x 1 ton Sd.Kfz.10 tractor.
8,500 x 3 ton Sd.Kfz.11 tractor.
3,835 x 5 ton Sd.Kfz.6 tractor.
12,000 x 8 ton Sd.Kfz.7 tractor.
4,000 x 12 ton Sd.Kfz.8 tractor.
2,691 x 18 ton Sd.Kfz.9 tractor.
832 x s.W.S. Replacement for Sd.Kfz.6 tractor.
plus over 25,000 inexpensive RSO full track tractors.

Maulitier production was about 21 or 22,000 total.

 

[Milosh]

First time I hear of an armoured leading edge on the Fw190A-8/R8. It did have a 21mm plate in front of the ammo box as well as 9mm for the top and bottom of the ammo box. The under cowl armour must have been an un-authorized addition because I can find no mention of this in the Fw190A manual.

 

[Erich]

yes it is un-othodox but due to the pulling over through a bomber box the belly of the armored knight was exposed thus the additions and this was later war, nothing in the manual is correct. I really cannot find a standard for either the A-8/R2 or the R8 as there were subtle differences sometimes even within the 3 /Sturmgruppen. R2 sometimes had the cowling mgs removed and the openings left open and sometimes faired over the R8 was to have it as "standard" the mg's removed with special custom over mg cowling-fairing streamlined. but yet in late 44 pilots still retained the over engine MG's.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Me 163 had this rather hefty chunk of armour. Would liked to have seen the result of a .5 in calibre round impacting with it.

 

[Milosh]

Very interesting Erich, as I came across a post on another board by one named Crumpp that emphatically stated that Luftwaffe was very strict about un-authorized modifications to its a/c, ie verboten if not authorized by the factory.

 

[davebender]

I suspect they weren't so strict in Northern Norway, North Africa or Crimea. Rules tend to relax when HQ is over 1,000 km away.

 

[psteel]

U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey: Motor Vehicle Industry Report

Shows 1943-44 figures Zg tractors for towing light flak and artillery 1 ton + 3 ton 5 ton
1943
1 ton 5755 [+ 2895 SPW 250]
3 ton 6731 [+ 4258 SPW 251]
5 ton 569

1944
1 ton 2527[+ 1701 SPW 250]
3 ton 9280 [+ 7785 SPW 251]
5 ton 746

25,608 TOTAL


1/2 tracks based on trucks

1943
3 ton 12,771
4.5 ton 594
RSO 14010

1944
3 ton 6224
4.5 ton 886
RSO 11924

46,409 TOTAL


basically twice as many cheap truck based 1/2 tracks compared to expensive Sd.Kfz. tractors. What was needed was more Mules and RSO freeing up Sd.Kfz production to become SPW APC.

 

[psteel]

Does any one know how much armor was invested in bomber construction He 111 He 177 etc What about dive bombers Ju-87 etc?

 

[davebender]

Expensive compared to what?

Sd.Kfz.11 cost about RM 20,000.
KM Tirpitz cost RM 181 million.

Sd.Kfz.11 artillery towing tractors did not break the German budget. All 8,500 produced cost less then a single battleship.

 

[psteel]

Panzer Armee » Sd. Kfz. 3 a/b/c/4/5 – Gleisketten Lastkraftwagen 2t offen (Maultier)


Each Maultier cost roughly 11,272 RM, while the basic truck is about 3000 RM. Much cheaper.

 

[Shortround6]

Expensive compared to what?

Sd.Kfz.11 cost about RM 20,000.
KM Tirpitz cost RM 181 million.

Sd.Kfz.11 artillery towing tractors did not break the German budget. All 8,500 produced cost less then a single battleship.

Would you like to calculate what the Tirpitz COST the British/allies?

A battleship (with escorts) for most Convoys going to/from Russia, or several thousand men (3000 or more?) tied up for several years, 10s of thousands of tons of fuel oil. Dockyard maintenance for these ships. Numerous bombing raids (both RAF and carrier borne) and partial development costs of the miniature submarines. Restricted sailings to Russia.
One or more Battleships that CANNOT be deployed elsewhere.

The Germans could have saved money by not Building the Tirpitz but they might have saved the British even more money, time and effort.

 

[zjtins]

Biggest problems for the Luftwaffe was using .30 cal MG when they should have been using the 13mm or 15mm instead
No pilot rotation from the fronts for training
Limited fuel in the fighters
2 front war (3 if you count the med).

I wont hazard a guess at which is most important they all were.

Somewhere else is too many models to support of course that is a strength as they could try many ideas to see what worked.

Sorry... late to the discussion

 

[stona]

Small problem: The R2 had no additional armor, it just had the Mk 108 outer-wing cannon, R7 was the armored variant without gun change, R8 with MK 108 and armor. The A-8 did not have the 801 TS power-egg as this would be an A-9 then.
The attached 11/44 Focke-Wulf doc gives 248.8kg armor weight, compared to 137.8 for the initial A-8 and 165.3 for the A-8 with 801 TU power-egg.

You can argue that one with Peter Rodeicke (and maybe Prien while you are at it).

The table is from page 370 of his monumental (434 page) Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Denniss]

spoken with several Sturm pilots the R2 and R8 were the same crate except the R8 had armored leading edges on the wings and under engine cowling and an armored nose ring. Scheuklappen were removed from JG 4 and JG 300 A/C due to icing, Sturm JG 3 kept the plexiglas protectors on till all 3 Sturm units went in for the last battles for Berlin after January 15, 1945. in all it has mentioned and I feel it was more than the additional weight of 500 lbs, enough to blast US 4-engines out of the sky as well has British heavies but fighter vs fighter they were going to lose en-masse.

Production may have been a bit fluid in late 44-45 so Focke-Wulf may have started building the R2 with armor upon unit request but in theory both R2 and R8 only had the MK 108 in common.
If armored nose ring is additional engine armor then it's nothing uncommon - it was to be part of both TU and TS engine packs.

 

[Erich]

think during war-time and in this case the manual can almost be thrown out the window LW pilots mention flying the R2 till wars end even after accepting new replacement R8's. to me the whole thing is weird

the first unit acceptance was of the A-7 and A-8/MK. these were unarmored and had the outboard 3cm weapons installed in JG 1, 11 and Sturmstaffel 1 machines.

 

[davebender]

That won't make any difference if a better equipped and supplied German army crushes the Soviet Union during 1941.

 

[zjtins]

That won't make any difference if a better equipped and supplied German army crushes the Soviet Union during 1941.

Way off track but how? The USSR was is BIG. Much of the commerce and production was beyond the Urals (T-34 production was moved there when the war started).
The number of German soldiers per square mile would be far less than any occupied country. So how to conquer it let alone keep it?

 

[davebender]

Not during 1941.

Over half of total Soviet coal production came from Donetsk Basin and practically all oil came from Baku. Leningrad, Kharkov and Stalingrad were the major tank production centers. Practically all food was produced east of the Volga. A drive to the Volga extending from Astrakhan to Saratov should do the trick.