Do you think it would have been different if.....

kool kitty89 said:

Politics aside, what did the Bf 110 accomplish that the Fw 187 and Ju 88 wouldn't be more capable in.

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As a night fighter it was very capable early to mid war and very likely cheaper than the Ju 88. Considering there would not have been the 110, which type would fill the need for night fighters from 41 to 43? There still was too much need for tactical medium bombers to divert al Ju 88s to that role.

Yes, Heinkel could have been a more successful manufacturer.

I think few would argue, that the He 177B (277 or 274) would have been a more effective aircraft for the LW., than the coupled twin of the '177'.

The He 100D in service would have made an interesting contrast to the '109', faster, and with a longer range. But with a smaller wing (span area), it would be less manoeuvrable than the 109!
Although the aircraft was improved, over the 100B, by increasing the span by 4 ft, and dispensing with the surface evaporation - supplanted by a semi-retractable belly radiator - its only service was with a squadron of Heinkel test pilots for the defence of the Rostok-Marienehe Heinkel factory.

As to the FW 187, I think many would say it deserved a better fate. In many respects it was similar to the Gloster G.39 (size, power performance). Only the first and second prototypes were single seaters, subsequently two-seaters as per RLM requirements.
But either way, how much better would it have been instead of the Me 110, in say the BoB - not a lot. Yet IMO I think the Ju 88C would have fared even worse than the Me 110, if it was used instead.
The Me 110 was originally intended for a specification that included light-bombing duties (much like the French Potez 630) - hence the need for a rear-gunner. And in that capacity it might have been more valuable in the BoB, rather than acting as long-range escort.

This is my first thread on this forum and i am glad you nice people have replied with many interesting points. Thank you.

I think a 4-engined He 177 falls in a similar category to the Fw 187. The 177's problems had resulted from the RLM's insistance on the dive bomber requirement, thus much weight was added (strengtened structure) and the coupled engines were used. (the Ju 88's performance was also hampered by additional "pet projects" encorporated into it frm the RLM)

It took a long time for the RLM to even considder a seperate 4-engined version. (I'm not sure on this, but I believe Heinkel started the He 177B/277 design as a private project)



Assuming however that they had simply gone with a 4-engined heay bomber, I don't think the He 177B/277 would be accurately representative of such a design. (that design being developed considerably later than the initial He 177)
So, compared to the 277, it may have been a bit lighter with a smaller wing, smaller bomb capacity, and different engines. (Jumo 211, or DB 601's) Closer to a 4-engine 177 minus the extra weight of resultng from the dive bomber modifications.

KK
You are absolutely right. I read the first message carelessly, missed the words "from the start." The specs demanded dive bombing ability so no 4-engine 177 at the beginning. But a possible scenario is that a bit like that of Do 217. When dive bombing demand was seen to be too much for the 217 which otherwise seemed to be a success, dive bombing was silently disregarded. In the He 177 case situation would have been a bit more complicated because IIRC coupled engines were chosen also because of lower drag and that was seen very important for attaining the required max range. So I can image some persistence on trying to make coupled engines work properly before giving up and changing to 4 engine layout.

Juha

To quote regarding the He 177 from Phoenix Triumphant The rise and rise of the Luftwaffe, by E R Hooton (p.156-7).

Although the aircraft had four engines they were coupled together in two nacelles with each pair of DB 601 engines (designated DB 606) driving a single propeller. This was partly to improve the aerodynamics, but the arrangement also reflected Jeschonnek's dislike of four-engine bombers and preface for twin-engine ones which could be used as dive bombers for greater accuracy. This, and the dive bomber requirement, was to plague the aircraft's development: Thirty (later forty) prototypes and pre-production aircraft were ordered. The specification called for an aircraft capable of diving at angles of 60 degrees, and this required extensive reinforcement of the airframe, with production aircraft having an anticipated loaded weight of nearly 27 tonnes.
.... the Achilles' heel of the He 177 was the DB 606, the configuration of which made it prone to overheating, and engine fires became a common occurence. Heinkel recognized that this would abe a chronic problem and in mid-1939 began designing the He 179, a version with four separate engines, but Udet and Daimler-Benz were determined to solve the DB 606's problems for reasons of prestige. Although the development of four-engine aircraft was slashed by Udet on 12 September 1939, the following year Heinkel renewed development as the private venture 'He 177B' (He 277), but this did not receive official sanction until May 1943 and was too late to influence the outcome of the war.

It would be interesting to know how different the He 179 was to the He 177B!!? And if it had been sanctioned in mid-'39, presumably the He 111 would have been phased out of production - with the He 179 available for the start of the Eastern Front.

Erich said:

the pace of the He 219 fell off in late 43 as the history of the gruppe that used it shows, very few kills in 45; the Ju 88G-6 was superior in every way when it came onto the scene in late 44

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the 219' was a good mosquito killer.

maverick61 said:

the 219' was a good mosquito killer.

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Yes, and it was the only Nachtjager capable of catching a Mossie (at least until the advent of the proposed Do 435 or Me 262B2 Nachtjagers).

How do you guys think the Ar 240 would have done as a nightfighter? It was developed considerably earlier than the He 219 and seems to have been a saisfactory design. Was the high wingloading the main reason it never entered production? (it did serve well as a recon a/c)

kool kitty89 said:

How do you guys think the Ar 240 would have done as a nightfighter? It was developed considerably earlier than the He 219 and seems to have been a saisfactory design. Was the high wingloading the main reason it never entered production? (it did serve well as a recon a/c)

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the AR 240- was a recon.as i know it never had weapons. but i doubt it.it would have high loads etc'at high altitudes.
the 262 might have been a challenge if for the Eingines.probs'' it was fast at high altitudes of 25.000 ft were lancs +B17's were there..
but if they were) then we and i woulnt be talkin now...
cheers
terry

The Ar 240 started life as a Zerstorer though. The first two prototypes had stability problems, but these were later solved by enlarging the control surfaces and stabilizers, and lengthening the fuselage.

However I think it was the high win loading that caused it to be rejected in its intended role. This probably would have also have limited development as anightfighter. (limited room for weight increase)