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Some of the modifications don't seem that difficult.Have you noticed your Spitfires tend to turn up later, thirstier, more fragile, harder to fly and modify than the ones the British built?
It would be interesting trying to control 100's of miles of bomber stream made up of 1000's of individual bombers transiting in and out of the UK at the same time, it would certainly overwhelm the day defences not to mention saving a lot of black paint.
100% correct. The ENTIRE US Heavy Bomber crew training pipeline was dedicated to learning the B-24 and B-17 systems, charateristics, daylight (primary) navigation and bomb aiming. It would have deeply impacted expectations for POINTBLANK objectives to be achieved before D-Day. In October, then the brief experience of setting up RAF linked operational training for night operations during November 1943 made it abundantly clear there was no turning away from daylight ops.It would require a lot of retraining of Bomber Command crews. Its aircraft flew to and aimed at the target individually in nighttime bombing, a sharp contrast to the USAAF approach of large, tight formations and the aiming done by lead crews. (The retraining matter was something which the USAAF cited as one of the reasons to not switch to nighttime bombing.)
The AAF problem in reverse.As it was historically, when Bomber Command did do daytime bombing in 1944, it had to come up with its own tactics since its crews were not trained in tight formation flying. The target marking methods used at night also didn't work as well in daylight and required modification.
I yield to your more thorough knowledge.
I do wonder though what Harris would have made of going back to daylight bombing in late 1942/early 1943.
100% correct.
US 8th units did embark on night operations with Bomber Command and to all intents and purposes they were successful, so the Americans could have done night bombing, but the joint chiefs of the 8th and BC came to the conclusion that round-the-clock bombing was a better way of bringing the Reich to its knees.
The American heavy bombers had turbochargers. The British heavy bombers did not. American bombers flew high enough that to attack them, the Germans had to climb up above 30,000ft, which suited the escorting P-47s, also turbocharged, perfectly. At 30,000ft, P-47s had a huge speed advantage over the Germans, something like 50mph. In combat, this is not manageable. Escorting Lancasters in daylight would have placed Spitfires at altitudes that suited Fw-190s. The Spitfires could escort American bombers, and they would be faster at 30,000ft, but not as much faster as the P-47s.I yield to your more thorough knowledge.
I do wonder though what Harris would have made of going back to daylight bombing in late 1942/early 1943.
They had superchargers instead.The British heavy bombers did not
2 speed superchargers that had the engine producing it max HP at 6000ft.They had superchargers instead.
The Merlin XX had just under 1300hp @ 10,000ft and just under 1200 @ 17,500. If the need arose to fly higher there's no reason high altitude merlins couldn't be fitted.2 speed superchargers that had the engine producing it max HP at 6000ft.
The RAF did experiment with two stage Merlin engined Lancasters.The Merlin XX had just under 1300hp @ 10,000ft and just under 1200 @ 17,500. If the need arose to fly higher there's no reason high altitude merlins couldn't be fitted.
Which ones? As so far it comes across as all too hardSome of the modifications don't seem that difficult.
If you changed that to had more problems you would join everyone else.But the whole rear tank set up seems a bit dodgy compared to the Mustang.
As has been reported many times, add the RAF was wary about operating wartime Mustangs using the rear tank. The post war pilot's notes for the Mustang say carrying under wing loads made the handling better and caution about the effects of dropping the loads with the rear tank still full. So putting a 90 gallon external tank on the Spitfire should to the same sort of thing. As the cut down fuselages on the P-47 and P-51 caused handling issues, requiring a dorsal fin extension, you would expect the same for the Spitfire.Mustangs in US service were allowed to keep using their rear tanks for years after the war (I don't know if the shifted anything else. like radios or got ballast or????) High back Spitfires were allowed to fill the rear tanks with special permission, otherwise wired shut. Low back Spitfires were prohibited from using the rear tanks under any circumstances.
Actually wrong, the early 1945 tests used a standard Spitfire that was also given hand made metal covered elevators for *some* of the tests, they made handling better. There were July 1944 tests on a mark VIII with a 75 gallon rear fuselage tank. The 30 odd gallons level had been worked out some time previously. Not sure if the 1945 tests made it official or not. The post war Spitfire IX and XVI notes state all XVI and some late model IX had the rear fuselage tanks, the effective start of XVI production was September 1944.The test of the Spitfire in Jan 1945 used metal covered elevators. A relatively simple change but not done on service aircraft even post war? This is the plane with evaluation of burning down the fuel by 30 gals leaving 43 in the tank/s.
Whatever. It is clear you consider the rear tank in a Spitfire a bad idea, you are just having trouble finding a good reason why, trialing various thoughts like reaching back to 1942. The US mark IX modification was adding 43 gallons in the rear fuselage, plus 16.5 gallons in each wing and plumbing the wings to allow a pair of 62.5 gallon drop tanks, similar to the Mustang. The Spitfire VIII pilot's notes have a 26 gallon rear fuselage tankPost war Manual says 30 gallons remaining was dividing line between what you could do and what you couldn't. Extra insurance in peacetime or different elevator required a different limit or both.
As a first problem that adds weight aft, which makes the CoG issues worse. A post war trial with a 58% bigger tail on the mark IX had a mixture of handling advantages and disadvantages.Low back Spits (at least MK XVIs ) might have benefited from a broader tail/rudder like the Griffon powered XIV. when trying to fly with a rearward CG?
The one data point we have for calculating the Spitfire is at 20,000 feet and "advocates" is an interesting adjective, does that make you a detractor, anti advocate? As for the altitude correction the post war Mustang notes on fuel consumption with altitude have the datum point as 10,000 feet, and say consumption increases over datum by 4.5% at 20,000 feet and 5.5% at 25,000 feet.US radius charts were done at 25,000ft. The advocates of the Spit want to use 20,000ft. How do you want to cover the difference?
So the P-38 and P-47 combat radius figures require them to use the same speed as the Mustang? Remembering that being slower than the Mustang they would have the same reserve power issues you brought up about the Spitfire.The US also figured the exit speed at 215 IAS. I am not saying they were right but we do need to use a common speed to compare planes.
Something about flying an unarmed Spit, maybe. Additionally, complicated to fill multiple tanks, as well as complicating plumbing outboard of the guns as well as screwing up oll inertia as you move outboard. The Mustang was delivered with two auxilary tanks (total 26 gal) in each wing gun and ammo bays. RAF had choice of Very long range (for that time) Recon with only the two fuseage cowl guns. A similar approach leaves a Spitfire defenseless.I've posted this before but simply increasing the size of the leading edge tanks is also a viable option, for reasons unknown the tanks were only between ribs 7 and 5, the PR spits had the tanks from rib 2 outwards, making the MkVIII tanks from rib 2 to 7 doubles their capacity to 50G combined with the added bonus of keeping it on the COG. View attachment 680836
Better comparison perhaps is same basic wing/fuselage/empennage for all three 'combinations' - different afterdeck and cockpit enclosure - requiring slightly different DF. Same fuel capacity. Same basic engine, but different supercharger stage variation for different performance envelope. The Dorsal Fin and reverse rudder boost kits added to B/C/D/K until they became production articles. Most of the fuselage and wing from firewall aft, save cooling scoop and radiators to handle heavier load than NA-73 through NA-99 (P-51A).Most of the swo stage PR Spits got enlarged oil tanks.
Many of the PR Spits were allowed to fly (or take-off) hundreds of pounds heavier than the combat versions.
Some of the PR Spits had no BP glass.
Most of the PR Spit pilots were instructed to get the pictures back, not muck about with German fighters, even if they had a few guns.
going back to the P-51 for moment.
View attachment 680932
Two different tails and two different rear fuselages for 3 different combinations.
A Pilots manual may have to cover all three.
The British may have been able to build a longer range Spitfire.
But what version shouldn't' they have built and what do you need to t do ( I am assuming it could have been done, eventually) to get the Performance you want.
Performance includes climb, turn, roll rate, etc.
Perhaps they set the Performance standard too high (weren't willing to accept the loss in handling/flying qualities) ?
Perhaps they didn't have the engineering staff to handle too many changes at once and other projects (Stuffing Griffons in the airframe) took priority.
Huh?.Something about flying an unarmed Spit, maybe
Why would making the tank from rib 2 to rib 7 leave the Spit defenceless?, your not taking the guns out.A similar approach leaves a Spitfire defenseless.
We are not trying to make the Spit a Mustang, we are trying to extend the range of the Spit before the Mustang comes into service.The Spitfire was being used in its best range and performance. Trying to extend the range, duplicates the capabilities of an already excellent aircraft (Mustang) and creates a void in the shorter coverage area.
Which version should they have built, the one with more than 175 mile radius, why don't we start with that. Seriously we are going around in circles.The British may have been able to build a longer range Spitfire.
But what version shouldn't' they have built and what do you need to t do ( I am assuming it could have been done, eventually) to get the Performance you want.