33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
Not to rain on your parade too much, but I posted that same article way back in post #147.
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Especially since I also linked an article from the highly esteemed Royal Aeronautical Society covering what had been tried and so forth. Jeez.
All I want is to give the Spit more endurance so it can stay in the fight, there's a reason P47's and P51's racked up big numbers of kills over Europe, they could get to the fight, the Spit couldn't, a MkIX with 300 mile radius from late 42'-early 43' would have been a handy bird.Your answer tells me you're more interested in snappy answers than information. So, go do as you want. Cheers.
Not trying to match the Mustang, have said this repeatedly.didn't match the Mustang.
Not trying to design a new aeroplane either, just getting rear tanks into the Spit and into service late '42 early 43' is all I'm trying to achieve, MkIX's were already plumbed for drop tanks.There was a proposal at one stage to shift the radiator system on the Spitfire to the
lower fuselage to give the same effect as the Mustang but the time and resources used for this would have meant the Merlin Mustang would have been in operation
first anyway.
To fit the rear tanks that were available and in service since 1940 and later fitted to all production MkXVI's.Another option would have been
That's the only valid argument I can see on why it wasn't done in the whole 19 page thread.Again, I'll repeat why it wasn't, Charles Portal, Chief of the RAF Air Staff refused to believe that the RAF needed a fighter with that kind of range because it would be inferior to short ranged fighters, at least that was his argument.
Varoius marks did get the rear tanks which was the main increase in fuel capacity plus bag tanks in the wings.To fit the rear tanks that were available and in service since 1940 and later fitted to all production MkXVI's.
I believe post #147 was before I was born........Not to rain on your parade too much, but I posted that same article way back in post #147.
All I want is to give the Spit more endurance so it can stay in the fight, there's a reason P47's and P51's racked up big numbers of kills over Europe, they could get to the fight, the Spit couldn't, a MkIX with 300 mile radius from late 42'-early 43' would have been a handy bird.
OK, so who is going to fly the Spitfire's current missions while your long-range Spits do their new missions? Were these assets assigned to the RAF or were they USAAF fighters that would NEVER be assigned as defense of the UK? US assets were pursuing US missions, not UK missions except where they happened to coincide.
Basic question is if the SPitfires were not defending the country, who WOULD have been doing so and were they available to UK Fighter Command while the Spits were flitting about elsewhere?
On D-Day 6 June 1944 there were still 10 squadrons in Air Defence of Great Britain flying Spitfire Mk.V, with 8 of those belonging to 11 Group in the South East of England and 1 each in 12 & 13 Groups further north. There was even still a Hurricane II squadron based in the east of Scotland in a defensive role.I'm sure that by mid 1943 there would be enough IXs to perform escort duty and also defend the homeland.
What new missions?, adding fuel allows the same squadrons already crossing the channel doing escort missions or sweeps more endurance, I'm not inventing a new air force.OK, so who is going to fly the Spitfire's current missions while your long-range Spits do their new missions?
Taking the fight to the Luftwaffe and pushing them further back from the channel is the best defence.I'm sure that by mid 1943 there would be enough IXs to perform escort duty and also defend the homeland.
Internal fuel capacity is the determinant - not external tanks. Whatever you have left after dropping externals and a.) fight for 20 in, b.) economy cruise home, c.) loiter for 30 min is central to Combat Radius estimates.Fuel capacity was increased as the Spitfire marks progressed starting at 85 gallons internal in the MKII to V then going up to 124 gallons for the MK VIII
and 160 gallons for Mk XIV. The MkVIII had quite a good range compared to the II and V so was sent for use in the far East.
The problem for escort range when compared to the Merlin Mustang is drag/boost. The lower drag and Meredith effect? of the Mustang gave it a cruise speed
around 30MPH greater than the Spitfire while using the same or less fuel. There was a proposal at one stage to shift the radiator system on the Spitfire to the
lower fuselage to give the same effect as the Mustang but the time and resources used for this would have meant the Merlin Mustang would have been in operation
first anyway.
MK XIV's were used as escort for USAAF and RAF bomber raids as far across as Switzerland with about a four hour flight time and no problem with fuel but
this still didn't match the Mustang.
A test was done earlier with drop tanks and extra fuel at Wright field in the US but to get an acceptable range with armament still onboard meant the aircraft
was over it's maximum take off weight. To get a range close to the mustang would have meant another belly tank as well putting the MK IX at 10% over it's
MTOW. The MKVIII had a stronger frame and would have been more capable but it's still pushing things.
Another option would have been to have production of the Spitfire carried out in the US as well as Britain earlier in the war. More available production would
have meant more facilities aside to do R&D giving the possibility of a longer range version in late 1942.
Yes that is why I only referred to increases in internal fuel capacity.Internal fuel capacity is the determinant - not external tanks. Whatever you have left after dropping externals and a.) fight for 20 in, b.) economy cruise home, c.) loiter for 30 min is central to Combat Radius estimates.
P-51B/D with fuse tank = 269gal.
Spitfire was designed to slightly lower stress limits than Mustang - at the beginning of its life cycle.
Both the wing and the cooling drag attributes contributed to superior cruise and top speed aerodynamics for the Mustang although the thin(er) wing of the Spitfire gave slightly better Cdmach profile than Mustang wing.
Changing the cooling system approach to imbedded Radiator system would have been a huge fuselage re-design (my speculation) due to differences in aft frame volumes and structure to accomodate the new Meredith type system.
Significant is he lack thereof in the later models of Spit after several years experience and knowledge of the 'do/don't do' of Mustang I and evolution of external/internal configuration changes. Even with the original allotment of NA-73/83 airframes for Merlin conversion, no attempt was made to lift the cooling system into a later model Spitfire toimprove aerodynamics. All the major changes were horsepower driven.
What new missions?, adding fuel allows the same squadrons already crossing the channel doing escort missions or sweeps more endurance, I'm not inventing a new air force.
I believe post #147 was before I was born........
Greg's you tube site has a very in depth analysis of nearly every plane that flew during the war years he often compares common pairing so you get to see graphical comparisons . Drop tanks various sizes of internal tanks and even when the super high octane gas became available as well as German use of nitrous and alcohol fuelsJust about any fighter could use a bit more range.
Just what are you going to have to give up to get it?
An extra 20-30 gallons in a Spit might be doable, depends on the engine and tactical situation. but an extra 30 gallons is not going to get to the Ruhr and back let alone any futher.
We keep posting this picture
View attachment 665395
They built at least 40 of them, They were used by 3 different squadrons, (at the same time?)
There are performance figures for them. If you stick the tank in the rear fuselage you get rid of most of the drag but the loss of climb rate is going to be fairly close.
The idea that you can stick even more fuel inside an early Spitfire and wind up with a useful escort fighter needs some careful evaluation.
A standard ML II was supposed to climb at 2,175fpm at 20,000ft.
With the tank the climb rate dropped to 1420fpm.
Adjust for drag (about 25mph in speed) but you are not going to get most of the climb back.
For a Spitfire V fitting four 20mm guns instead of two 20s and four .30s cost just about 1 full minute to climb to 20,000ft. from a difference of about 400lbs in weight.
For these tests the Merlin 45 was running at 9lbs of boost at 2850 rpm.