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Yeah, I've run into that at times.Please understand that there are many omissions to meet the 20k character limit
Basically, I was kind of referring to the modification of the rear that sort of blended the taller tailwheel into a tear-drop when retracted.I think there seems no 'special tail wheel faring' for F4U-1 BuNo.17930
What caused there to be such discrepancies between the drag-coefficient chart and the itemized chart that displayed methods to increase speed?Removing the folding mechanism and tail hook, after halves of the doors were bolted closed and the cove for the tail hook was skinned over. the aircraft was to average an increased top speed of 4 mph . . . . Land-based configuration gives additional 4 mph actually for Corsair, there was no additional 6(or 8) mph.
Wait, they could have made improvements to the engine cowling?In my view, for estimated +8 mph, smooth and faired cowling would have had a substantial impact.
Actually, even with the 13'1" blade -- it's still supersonic at the tips. It's just not quite as extreme 1.0699 vs 1.0791 within 200 feet of each other in altitude. That said, with the F6F's propeller you're going 6 miles an hour faster at the same altitude.I think Zipper 730's calculation is a good indication of why the early F4U-1's old 13'4" prop was losing efficiency at high altitude high speed range
That would put you about 0.6 mph of 425 mph.In conclusion, the F4U-1 BuNo.17930's 431 mph seems the best performance actually achievable with standard drag condition for standard production F4U-1 with 13'1" prop as Navy stated, even assuming the worst, can subtract up to 6.4 mph.
Critical altitude goes up because you have a lower fuel/air ratio, and it's closer to the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline combustion.F6F-5 BuNo.58310 graph, the auto-lean curve showed faster than the auto rich at altitude, the vmax was about 8 mph faster, and the critical altitude increased about 400 ft
If I read this right, the test involved a 13'0" propeller instead of the F4U-1's 13'4", or the F6F-3's 13'1" design. The gear ratio was also 0.4 instead of 0.5. So the ability to estimate performance to within 500 feet was pretty decent at the time?http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-1-02334.pdf
In the F4U-1 BuNo.02334's report, standard F4U-1 expected 404 mph @ 25300' for military power and ACP showed 407 mph @ 24800' actually obtained for military power. this is a fairly close result and seems resonable for Navy's estimate.
So this has to do with pressure carburetor set-up the ratio between impact and venturi pressures, or something of that sort?Testing was performed on both engines using different sized water jets and carburetor impact pressure settings with very good results being obtained (up to 65" Hg was deemed safe while using 130 octane fuel). . . . They used larger water jets and made adjustments to the supercharger fuel and water regulators which allowed for a higher flow rate to occur (hence more impact pressure), and this allowed for higher manifold pressures to be developed safely without detonation which in turn produced more power.
No problem, DarrenDon't you just love talking Corsairs and Hellcats? It's probably one of my favorite past times, and I thank Zipper very much for creating this very interesting thread....
So this has to do with pressure carburetor set-up the ratio between impact and venturi pressures, or something of that sort?
Good point.Basically, I was kind of referring to the modification of the rear that sort of blended the taller tailwheel into a tear-drop when retracted.
This image you posted earlier, but I'll use it for an example...
View attachment 576522
While this may/may not sound ignorant: I'm curious why they went to the whole trouble of redesigning the whole tailwheel? Was this related to visibility?
What caused there to be such discrepancies between the drag-coefficient chart and the itemized chart that displayed methods to increase speed?
Looking at this image...
Was it possible to fair over any of these plates for an operational aircraft? As for the fairing over the wing-fold line, was this done on land-based aircraft?
They did, with F4U-4 and other post war variants. but that's not what you're trying to say.Wait, they could have made improvements to the engine cowling?
Then perhaps a major change in design has affected it than tip speed. The old 13"4' propeller was called the narrow chord prop and the new 13"1' was called the paddle blade prop.Actually, even with the 13'1" blade -- it's still supersonic at the tips. It's just not quite as extreme 1.0699 vs 1.0791 within 200 feet of each other in altitude. That said, with the F6F's propeller you're going 6 miles an hour faster at the same altitude.
View attachment 576539
View attachment 576540
If I read this right, the test involved a 13'0" propeller instead of the F4U-1's 13'4", or the F6F-3's 13'1" design. The gear ratio was also 0.4 instead of 0.5. So the ability to estimate performance to within 500 feet was pretty decent at the time?
In conclusion, the Navy succeeded in correct the F4U-1 BuNo.17930 to 'standard' drag condition for production F4U-1(F4U-1 ACP), and as a result of installing a new propeller, it seemed able to clearly identify the performance that could be achieved compared to the old propeller. I recommend using these for calculation because it's Navy corrected samples to military standard that well showed the performance difference caused by the replacement of the propeller for F4U-1 at same and standard condition.
Hi Dawncaster,
I took one last look at what you had to say concerning rich vs. lean mixtures and the subsequent horsepower/speed produced and noticed that there was a 25 hp/9 mph difference between BuNo. 17930 & 50030 at 20,000 feet. They both had the more efficient F6F-3 propeller, taped shell ejector openings, and weighed exactly the same at 12,162 lbs. The only drag component that was different between the two was that BuNo. 50030 had tail and (quite possibly) catapult hooks installed:
F4U-1 BuNo. 17930
View attachment 576652
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-1-17930.pdf
F4U-1 BuNo. 50030
View attachment 576659View attachment 576660
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-1-50030-final.pdf
After realizing that F6F-5 BuNo. 58310 was 8 mph faster while using a lean mixture rather than rich, I was curious what the horsepower difference was between the two settings as well, which turned out to be roughly 70 hp (1660 hp vs. 1590 hp). Being that the horsepower difference between the two F4U-1s was only 25 hp, I'm puzzled as to why a seemingly large 9 mph speed difference exists between them? Of course a portion of it can be attributed to the extra drag of the tail and catapult hooks, but according to your calculations this is at most only 3 mph. Do you believe 25 hp is enough to produce the extra 6 mph?
I'm not really sure myself, I'm just intrigued by the topic and want to exhaust all avenues before moving on to things less mentally exhausting.....
P.S. If we subtract the 2.4 mph for open shell ejector openings in the wings of BuNo. 50030 we get a maximum speed of 418.6 or about 419 mph. This seems very close to what is quoted in both the ACP and the Chance-Vought document concerning the F4U-1D.
First of all, the paragraphs you quoted are for F4U-1 ACP and F4U-1 BuNo.17930, remember what I wrote in the paragraphs above it.
'I think I've already introduced samples that are 'standard' to compare the 13'4" propeller with the 13'1" propeller. F4U-1 ACP and F4U-1 BuNo.17930 with 'standard' drag conditions by the Navy and measured performance in similar period(1944/3/1 for ACP and 1944/3/4~1944/3/8 for F4U-1 BuNo.17930).'
'Cross-validation with ACP and F4U-1 BuNo.17930 well shows both the matching and difference of performance that should be between the 13'1" propeller and the 13'4" propeller under the same drag condition. It showed the characteristic of a 13'4" propeller losing efficiency in a high-altitude high-speed range above 16.5k ft, while at the same time the two F4U-1s show well matching performance(or showed a convincing similarity) at same drag conditions below 16.5k ft. according to this, If make a comparison at same altitude for military power as you did, the 13'1" propeller was abuot 8 mph faster at 25,000 feet.'
'In conclusion, the Navy succeeded in correct the F4U-1 BuNo.17930 to 'standard' drag condition for production F4U-1(F4U-1 ACP), and as a result of installing a new propeller, it seemed able to clearly identify the performance that could be achieved compared to the old propeller. I recommend using these for calculation because it's Navy corrected samples to military standard that well showed the performance difference caused by the replacement of the propeller for F4U-1 at same and standard condition.'
There seems to have been a lack of explanation for mentioning the 'similar period' and 'standard'.
F4U-1 ACP : 1944/3/1
F4U-1 BuNo.17930 : 1944/3/4 and 1944/3/8
Look at the date attached to their performances. the 'period' in which their performance was measured is virtually the same, In other words, the 'standard' for this period seems also virtually same for both F4U-1s. however, there was a gap with F4U-1 BuNo.50030 and I had already mentioned it in the my old post.
'Firstly, I really don't seem to be good at explaining, as you said, Mixture was a hypothesis to explain the actual power losses, but the important thing about it is that there has actually been a loss in power. I think it's because of the difference in operation restrictions.'
'This is part of the report for F4U-1 BuNo.50030, the report states that performance has been reduced to standard conditions in accordance with standard flight test methods. In the report of F4U-1 BuNo.17930, no similar content can be found and I speculated that 'standard' Flight Test Methods was the main factor that made a difference in performance. I think it is the same as operation restriction.'
'Perhaps the operation restrictions in early 1944, when the F4U-1 ACP and F4U-1 BuNo.17930 were tested, was lax compared to 1945 when F4U-1 BuNo.50030 or F4U-1D were tested. and seems that It's more accurate and practical operation restrictions were founded over time as operating hours increased and more data obtained.'
Of course, the 'reduced' performance would not have been as good as the first obtained. the mixture setting was just one of the hypotheses for explaining the actual power loss. because of the different period, there seems to be too many variables under different standard. In fact, F4U-1 BuNo.50030's report was referred the F4U-1 BuNo.17930's report PTR 2105. so under the Standard Flight Test Method at that time, the 'reduced' performance of the F4U-1 BuNo.17930 was may have been similar to F4U-1 BuNo.50030's and may not have been so special as to stated it.
I remember reading all of this before but I believe that I finally understand what you were getting at. If F4U-1 BuNo. 17930 were tested in 1945 it wouldn't have reached a maximum speed of 431 mph, due to different operational guidelines which changed the testing methods employed. It most likely would have had a performance very similar to BuNo. 50030 (maybe a few miles per hour faster because it was configured for land use only). Things such as safety were probably the driving force behind the operational restrictions that were implemented after knowledge was gained over time about the aircraft's performance limitations.
Of course this is the case as well for the performance data found in the ACP dated 1 March 1944. It would also be reduced by roughly the same amount as F4U-1 BuNo. 17930.
Just look at the image again... move your finger about an inch to the right the front part of the tear-drop blending is right there, it looks like it's under the wing, but it isn't -- it's under the tail, in front of the wheel...In fact, I also considered that possibility, but the It should be visible at the ground, was not found in the included photo for F4U-1 BuNo.17930 report and others.
Would it affect bounce or approach angle, based on attitude or visibility?If the performance was most considered, the smooth surface of the first batch F4U-1's tiny tailwheel unit and the slotless tailwheel door, would have been the best. It seems to me that continued improvements to the tailwheel section are related to improved landing capabilities. As noted in the old post, it affected performance but was slight, on the other hand, landing capabilities would have come as a greater issue for the F4U-1, which targets carrier operations.
So the reason has to do with the fact that the coefficients are under different conditions? You calculated by the effect on the actual plane in flight.Charts from the Navy and NACA reports appear to be based on lift cofficient for level flight(about 0.2). But the other appears to have been zero lift drag coefficient chart. so instead of applying it as it is when I use it, I only made a relative comparison based on the data actually obtained from flight and calculation. In addition, NACA's drag coefficients were averaged figures, and even with similar commented drag reduction, there may be slight differences in actual work for drag reduction to F4U-1.
This would have only been on land-based aircraft, correct? Having wings that won't fold seem useless for carrier ops...According to Dana Bell, the wing fold seams were taped, puttied, and smoothed.
From what I remember, I was under the impression that a redesign to the cowling would have got more performance than the various other proposals for the F4U-1They did, with F4U-4 and other post war variants. but that's not what you're trying to say.
It would have a greater surface area per blade, which would move more air; additionally, you may/may not see a thickness/chord ratio that might be lower, which would favor high speed performance. The cross section of the blades might also differ in the two designs.Then perhaps a major change in design has affected it than tip speed. The old 13"4' propeller was called the narrow chord prop and the new 13"1' was called the paddle blade prop.
Much of the performance is the same at lower altitudes, with more at higher altitudes using the same manifold pressure settings, so it seems the propeller did the bulk of the work. I'm not sure if fairing over the top cowl-flap had any effect on speed.I think I've already introduced samples that are 'standard' to compare the 13'4" propeller with the 13'1" propeller. F4U-1 ACP and F4U-1 BuNo.17930 with 'standard' drag conditions by the Navy and measured performance in similar period(1944/3/1 for ACP and 1944/3/4~1944/3/8 for F4U-1 BuNo.17930).
From what I recall, the F4U-1 had a gear-ratio of 0.5 not 0.45. That would improve the tip-speeds of the blades. That said, I was under the impression that the F4U-4 used a different blade design.F4U-1 BuNo.02334's four-bladed propeller would be closer to F4U-4's because it was also four-bladed propeller with 0.45 gear ratio. and the propeller's diameter seems affected not only by the propeller blade design, but also by other units. for example F4U-4's propeller diameter was 13'2" with 6501A-0 blades but F4U-1's propeller diameter was 13'1" with same 6501A-0 blades. And the report described F4U-1 BuNo.02334 that the new propeller(6501A-0) was installed 'instead' of the old propeller(6443A-21), the 'standard' F4U-1 mentioned in the report would have had an old propeller(6443A-21).
and That's why I've always considered Hellcat's actually achievable maximum speed to be over 400 mph(about 410 mph). for example, according to AHT,
' Jan. 44, A modified F6F-3, including some of the features to be included in the later F6F-5 version, is flown at a speed of 410 mph at 21000 feet altitude. '
In my view, this is similar to the case in F4U-1 BuNo.17930, It was conducted in early 1944, and improvements for late production model were applied to test plane. what's regrettable is that I don't have a detailed report on it.
As for the performance of the F4U-1D figures being based on company estimates, that could be dubious.
I'm not sure if fairing over the top cowl-flap had any effect on speed.
I'm sorry, but could you explain it with photo?Just look at the image again... move your finger about an inch to the right the front part of the tear-drop blending is right there, it looks like it's under the wing, but it isn't -- it's under the tail, in front of the wheel...
design.
It would have affected at ground runs, not only AOA and visibility but also take-off distance and take-off speed.Would it affect bounce or approach angle, based on attitude or visibility?
It remains unchanged because it's figure actually obtained from flight tests. I was talking about the zero lift drag coeiffcient chart used to make relative comparisons in the process because I had to divide it up for explanation. It had different lift condition compared to the drag coefficients of NACA charts based on level-flight.So the reason has to do with the fact that the coefficients are under different conditions? You calculated by the effect on the actual plane in flight.
I'm pretty sure. because it can take off from carriers barly, but cannot land.This would have only been on land-based aircraft, correct? Having wings that won't fold seem useless for carrier ops...
However, the cowling of the F4U-1 was not redesigned during the service....From what I remember, I was under the impression that a redesign to the cowling would have got more performance than the various other proposals for the F4U-1
As for the dates made for performance, I'm not sure where I got the July 28 date from. Looking at the data I derived everything from, it seemed to be from October 31, 1944. The aircraft number matches up too.
Even if it's only few of the total cowl flaps, I guess it would slight affect to performance because it provides more air leakage. although it's expected to almost flushed at Vmax due to the overload relief system.I'm not sure if fairing over the top cowl-flap had any effect on speed.
F4U-1 BuNo.02334 had 0.4 gear ratio four blade 13'0" dia propeller with blade design 6501A-0, compared to standard 0.5 gear ratio three blade 13'4" dia propller with blade design 6443A-21, I felt it was more similar to F4U-4.From what I recall, the F4U-1 had a gear-ratio of 0.5 not 0.45. That would improve the tip-speeds of the blades. That said, I was under the impression that the F4U-4 used a different blade design.
I have read that about the F6F-3 too and that's a very good comparison. It would fall in line with the average speed advantage the Corsair held over the Hellcat throughout much of the war. I will have to be more careful in the future concerning test report dates and possible changes to the methods employed during testing. Thanks for bringing all of this to light.....
Although the 13' 1" propeller became the preferred option, the original 13' 4" variety was still an acceptable substitute. This tells me that it's performance was considered reasonable and enough for the job at hand. This was probably because a large portion of the fighting in the PTO took place at low and medium altitudes, so there wouldn't be a lot to choose from between the two types anyway in a practical sense.
AN 01-45HA-1 (1 June 1944)
View attachment 576747
AN 01-45HA-1 (15 March 1945)
View attachment 576749
We share the experiences of two great fighters suffering from biases.
OH No, I forgot to put 'can' between 'We' and 'share'.Yes, but luckily we're both here to help set the record straight....
OH No, I forgot to put 'can' between 'We' and 'share'.
Off the bat, I figure S Shortround6 and W wuzak might be able to better explain the matter -- wuzak might be the forum's authority on engines.I'm sorry, I really don't know much more about the water injection system than can be gleaned from pilot's manuals and test reports. I'm sure there is someone here that can help you with your questions better than I can. I actually would like to learn more about how the system works as well.....
It had to do with the basics of cowl design (and there might be errors here, so bear with me -- I'm used to being the village idiot when it comes to propeller driven aircraft).Not challenging you on this, but how did you draw this conclusion?
Sure...I'm sorry, but could you explain it with photo?
The higher tail-wheel seems to increase takeoff run in either carrier deck operations, and also raises takeoff speed. The only benefit I can see is visibility.It would have affected at ground runs, not only AOA and visibility but also take-off distance and take-off speed.
So, the tail wheel had no effect on this matter?And the bounce problems have been solved by improvements in oleo.
Makes senseI'm pretty sure. because it can take off from carriers barly, but cannot land.
The cowling configuration question was a hypothetical...However, the cowling of the F4U-1 was not redesigned during the service....
I didn't even notice that... that's normally something I would immediately spot.Performance curve what I mentioned was this.
I would figure the top cowl-flap being covered over would reduce air-leakage, since the flap is closed? Also, what's the overload relief system?Even if it's only few of the total cowl flaps, I guess it would slight affect to performance because it provides more air leakage. although it's expected to almost flushed at Vmax due to the overload relief system.
That, I already know. And I'd agree with it on that.In fact, It was a improvement to get rid of oil leakage
Sure...
I encircled the area in a brighter shade of red than the area you encircled, and connected them together. The front area is the front of the tear-drop.