Feasibility of airships in ww2?

Koopernic said:

German Air Ship Graf Zeppelin

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LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin [II], the Hindenburg's sister, not the original globe trotting LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin.

Of course the Germans knew about the radar, the debate has never been whether or not they knew about it, but their understanding of how it interlinked within the British defences. The Chain Home system for all its faults was the very first radar integrated air defence system and the Germans failed to understand how it worked, as you surmised in your last sentence, Koopernic.

LZ 130 was operated by Deutsches Luft Reederei (DLR), a civilian airline and was contracted by the RLM to carry out the reconnaissance flight. From late 1938 the airship carried out secret radio experiments involving centimetre band AM radio waves and radio specialists were carried aboard to measure resulting radio frequencies. These measured foreign radio signals across mainland Europe. The flight of 2 - 4 August 1939 over Britain was a failure. Here's information from the wiki page on the ship, which is surprisingly detailed and examines each of the airship's total flights.

"The "espionage trip" of 2 to 4 August 1939, taking over 48 hours and covering 4,203 km (2,612 mi), was the longest trip the LZ 130 made. The main goal was to secretly collect information on the British Chain Home radar system.[8] To do this the airship flew northwards close to the British east coast to the Shetland Isles and back. As well as the 45 crew, 28 personnel engaged in the measurements were carried. Lifting off was around 20:53 on 2 August 1939, it overflew Hildesheim at 23:38, seen by very few people.[8]

According to the memoirs of Albert Sammt, Mein Leben für den Zeppelin (translation: "My life for the zeppelin") in the chapter Mit LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin auf Funkhorch- und Funkortungsfahrt ("with the LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin on the radio-listening and radiolocation trip") written by Breuning, a radio-measuring spy basket was used. Sammt flew the LZ 130 up Britain's east coast stopping the engines at Aberdeen pretending they had engine failure in order to investigate strange antenna masts. They drifted freely westwards over land and according to Breuning, saw for the first time the new Supermarine Spitfires, which were then photographed as they circled the airship.[7] This alleged encounter with Spitfires is not supported by contemporary news sources, which state that the LZ 130 was intercepted by two RAF planes dispatched from Dyce Airport, a Miles Magister carrying 612 Squadron Leader Finlay Crerar and Officer Robinson, and an Avro Anson.[9]

On their return journey, as they neared Frankfurt on the evening of 4 August they were warned by radio that landing was not yet possible. At first they suspected an aeroplane had crashed at the site, but on overflying saw nothing amiss. They turned and flew towards the Rhön Mountains and on asking, were informed "landing before dusk not possible". They decided to return to Frankfurt and speak directly with the landing team (Landemannschaft) using their very high frequency transmitter, so that they would not be overheard by the French and so that they could speak in Swabian German to Beurle, the landing team leader.[7]

According to Breuning's account, Beurle informed them they must not land yet because the British had lodged a diplomatic protest over their actions and a British delegation was at the airfield, with agreement of the German government, to inspect the ship. They were under suspicion. Beurle told them to wait while they thought of something.[7] Shortly, the LZ 130 received instructions. They were to hide all the equipment on the ship and not to land at the usual well-lit landing point where a landing team was waiting, but to land at the other end where the "real" landing team was waiting. Once they had landed there, the technicians were to get off and they would be replaced by a unit of Sturmabteilung. The British delegation waiting at the usual landing place were told that, due to the weather, the airship had to land at another part of the airfield. By the time the British reached the airship, the spy crew was on a bus on their way to their hotel. Although they searched the ship, the British found nothing suspicious on the ship nor in the decoy SA-crew.[7] Breuning's account has been questioned; there is no official record of the British filing a diplomatic protest.[5]

Breuning explained that the trip's results were negative, but not because the British radar was switched off, as Churchill wrote in his memoirs. The German General Wolfgang Martini used a strong, impulsive, broadband radio transmission for determining the "radio-weather", the best wavelengths to use for radio. These impulses severely disturbed their highly sensitive receivers in the 10–12 metre waveband. Breuning wrote that he repeatedly requested Martini to stop transmitting during the spy trips, to no avail. This made it impossible for the LZ 130 to investigate the very wavebands the British were using.[7]"

LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin II - Wikipedia

Fascinating discussion, never knew about LZ-130. It almost made it operationally into ww2, I never knew. But I think there could have been a purpose given its long range, serving the technology transfer from Germany to Japan. LZ-130 and the Graf Zeppelin LZ-127 could have performed shuttle service with the listed 10,300 mile range, given air miles say Berlin to Tokyo is 5,573. Of course the actual route would be considerably longer. Two possibilities, both potentially hazardous as they do pass over remote Empire possessions. Actually, not potentially hazardous, it would be hazardous. One down Vichy France and across Vichy Africa, with night time crossing of British East Africa into the Indian Ocean. The other across the Balkans and over neutral Turkey, again with night time crossing of British Middle Eastern possessions. I would guess that neither would have the ability for radar intercepts or enough air for standing airspace control. Haven't spent a lot of time working this out, but seems doable. The first across Africa at least through say summer or fall 1942 until the Allied invasion of North Africa, and then it closes down. The other might potentially stay accessible quite a while. There were exchanges of airframes and powerplants early before ww2 commenced, and this would have accelerated the exchange. Later subs carrying technology like rocket motors and jet engines were often sunk in transit. With speedier two way transits including more technical personnel, perhaps it would have given early impetus to say development of the DB-605/HA-140 for the Ki-61 or improved radar for naval fire control or their own version of Chain Home. Given Heinkel's problems getting a hearing with the RLM, the sharing of the He-280 airframes and engines in 1942 is an interesting thought. OK, the Brits would probably been on to the game at some point, but it does seem a useful endeavor for these beasts. I would just make sure the crew wears parachutes at all times!

Interesting summary, Ragtag.

RagTag said:

The first across Africa at least through say summer or fall 1942 until the Allied invasion of North Africa, and then it closes down.

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History repeats itself, had that happened of course. In November 1917, the Germans were losing control of their East African colonies and in a bizarre and ultimately fruitless effort, the airship L 59, coined the Afrikazeppelin full of supplies and stuff flew from Bulgaria down the continent, but realised that Khartoum had been overthrown by the time the ship got there and turned around and returned, ultimately spending 95 hours in the air, covering 4,163 miles.

This was the longest recorded flight in history up to that time and ably demonstrated the advantages of the airship as a means of transport to those interested. It took another two years before it was exceeded in duration, by the British airship R.34 on its way to the USA in July 1919, but only by thirteen hours.

The German Zeppelins could have made the transit to Japan by crossing the Black Sea at either Romania or Bulgaria and then skirting the Soviet Union's southern border (or territory that would be lightly defended owing to the opening of the Eastern front) crossing into Mongolia (which was neutral) or along it's border and tyen crossing Japanese occupied territories (like Manchuria, etc.) and then on to Japan itself.

It would be possible BUT keep in mind that the weather during certain times of the year would make the passage treacherous.

An alternative route, also challenged by weather would be to fly north over Sweden/Finland and then follow an arc route over the Arctic Ocean and then south across Yakutsk and Udmurt (far east Russia) and then to Japan. That route is around 6500 miles, but would really only be a summer route. The majority of the route would be over water or neutral/friendly countries.

Nuuumannn, a great historical precedent. I like all the routes presented. To enhance survivability maybe all these options might have been used to keep Allied agents guessing. I suppose by the end of 1943 the game is up as P-51's start ranging over Germany. At that point best they not return and stay in the Pacific. I'd sell them to the Japanese Navy, possibly to rendezvous with transport subs like the I-29 in Singapore (which would have saved the JUMO, BMW and HWK jet and rocket engines that were sunk with her on the way to Japan). They also would have been useful in American free skies on maritime patrol and convoy escort in the Sea of Japan or the East China Sea, just as American subs like the Wahoo start to prey on the home waters. Still working on how to get them to survive till VJ day!

Interesting proposal and it looks like the least risky option is the Arctic route put forward by NevadaK. Airships were certainly ponderous and a trip near a potentially hostile nation was fraught with danger, not to mention the effects that weather had on airships at any rate. As I've mentioned earlier in the thread though, airships are an impracticable means of transport, certainly by WW2. It is interesting to note that the Germans and the Italians actually flew long range flights to Japan from Europe during the war; the Italians using the SM.75GA long range airliner outfitted with internal tankage, which increased its range to nearly 5,000 miles in 1942!

The one upside to an airship, is it lifting ability.
I don't have figures handy for the Zeppelins, but I do know from memory that the USS Akron and USS Macon (both some of the largest airships built) had a "useful lift" capacity between 180,000 pounds and a max. of 250,000 pounds.

That equates to a great deal of cargo.

GrauGeist said:

The one upside to an airship, is it lifting ability.

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Yes indeed, by WW2 probably the biggest benefit and even today the lifting capacity (plus range and ability to place cargo at the site of use rather than relying on infrastructure from airports etc) promised by LTA aircraft still spurs new designs. The impracticality of them as a mode of transport and their unique requirements and subsequent high operational costs make them commercially undesirable, however. In the war, transport would be the only real beneficial use for a rigid airship - to employ them for more militaristic purposes such as maritime patrol, or as bombers is a waste of resources, as has been identified.

In Britain during the Great War it was calculated that for the cost of building one rigid airship, three smaller, more manoeuvrable and more effective non-rigids could be built. Britain had a much small number of wartime rigids compared to the Germans, as the British recognised their value was limited, particularly cost wise and from what I have read, having gone over archival material relating to the British airship effort in WW1, the cost was a niggling issue among the rest of the admiralty.

There is a caveat to using airships for long range heavy lifters however. Airships rely on differential pressure to maintain height, rigids too. So, each gas cell is fitted with valves that automatically open to vent gas when the cell pressure exceeds outside pressure to prevent the cell from rupturing (obviously, the higher the airship goes, the lifting gas expands because air pressure is less dense at height). This safety feature has a detrimental impact on performance. As a result, airships can't reach extremely high altitudes carrying large loads, although German Height Climber Zeppelins reached as high as 22,000 ft, with the subsequent impact on bombing accuracy and reduced crew functionality from having to breathe oxygen (Height Climbers were structurally flimsy and suffered accidents. R.38 the British built, US Navy airship based on a Height Climber suffered structural failure at low altitude because of lightweight structure and carrying out hard manoeuvring).

Airships are limited by their pressure height; the altitude where they can operate with a maximum load of lifting gas for a given loaded weight, before lifting gas vents naturally. Greater heights can be reached, but gas will vent the higher the ship goes, which reduces its lifting capacity, thereby its ability to remain airborne. This will naturally impact its range. Lowering its altitude to conserve lifting gas also has a detrimental impact on range, simply because to achieve a given range, more fuel has to be used because the outside air pressure is greater at lower altitude and the lifting gas is less effective, i.e. the ship is 'heavier' for a given amount of gas, as well as the airship being draggier. In saying that however, a rigid's load carrying capability would still be greater than any aeroplane during WW2 and it would still be able to carry a given load across a greater distance than any aeroplane.

A quarter million tons of load per transit is a mighty tempting prospect, to be honest.

In order to get materials to Japan from France, the item had to be disassembled and stowed away in a larger class sub.

With the lifting power of a Zeppelin, the Japanese Tiger tank could have easily been transported back to Japan instead of it languishing on the docks in France, waiting for an I-400 or I-25 aircraft carrier sub to come fetch it.

GrauGeist said:

With the lifting power of a Zeppelin, the Japanese Tiger tank could have easily been transported back to Japan instead of it languishing on the docks in France, waiting for an I-400 or I-25 aircraft carrier sub to come fetch it.

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With that capability they would have realised the Tiger was a dog and that they should have bought Panzer IVs, and then later, Panthers. Still, they could engineer a better design using the technology, I guess...

Well, the IJA admired the Tiger and purchased one with the intention of producing the Tiger for home defense, complete with radio equipment, blueprints and spares.
Before the IJA could take it home, the Allies landed in France and the Japanese Tiger was reportedly commandeered by the Schwereabteilung 101 and disappeared into the fog of war.

GrauGeist said:

Well, the IJA admired the Tiger and purchased one with the intention of producing the Tiger for home defense, complete with radio equipment, blueprints and spares.
Before the IJA could take it home, the Allies landed in France and the Japanese Tiger was reportedly commandeered by the Schwereabteilung 101 and disappeared into the fog of war.

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Yes, I was aware of this, it's been mentioned before. The Tiger is an impressive beast in the flesh and there's no doubt that the Japanese delegation eyeing the thing up would be impressed, particularly taking their own tanks into consideration. It looks fearsome.

Tiger I i

Little Japanese tank...

Type 97 Chi-Ha

The Japanese knew that invasion was imminent, so they started developing armor that would resist the invaders.
Prior to their encountering the U.S. Marines and Army M3s and M4s, nothing withstood their onslaught backed by their light armor.
That ideology changed midwar and they were seeking a solution with heavier armor.
Some of their design considerations were:
Type 3 "Chi-Nu"
Type 4 "Chi-To"
Type 5 "Chi-Ri"
Type 5 "Ho-Ri"
and of course, the Tiger.

Certainly made sense for the Japanese to re-evaluate their armour, but the Tiger was mechanically unreliable. Just what issues the Japanese would have had with the Tiger can only really be hinted at; it would have made sense for them to acquire a more reliable platform on which to base their defenses.

Not only was the Zeppelin's lifting weight capacity a unique asset but also its ability to carry items of bulk. The passenger area was quite voluminous and converted at least in part to cargo hold would be most useful. Radar might be an area where the transport of cutting edge technology might have a real impact. While not able to technically address it I've always read Japanese radar lagged the US, a discrepancy maybe most exemplified in the later naval engagements. The Japanese liaisons in Germany I'm sure would have had attraction in boot strapping their existing technology. Maybe some was shared already, but Zeppelins could have possibly transported whole German radar units (part disassembled of course) like the Freya with the big bedspring type antennas or the sophisticated looking Wurzburg AA unit gun laying radars, along with a helpful group of technicians to directly assist the reverse engineering. I was surprised to find they actually did have a radar warning system chain for the home islands, but how effective it was on the B-29's I don't know. I suspect a longer detection range and better altitude tracking would have eventually resulted from the Zepp's delivery, but would another 15 or 20 minutes of warning ( a guess) on incoming B-29 raids targeting the home islands make a difference in ground control getting interceptors to altitude in the right place?

No need to transport the bulky radar arrays, the Japanese were quite capable of working from plans.

They built the Kikka from a diagram of the Me262 (and actually were in the process of building a copy of the Me262: KI-201).

Snautzer01 said:

Could have been usefull closeing the atlantic gap very soon.

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1944 Press Photo WWII, a U.S. Navy blimp makes a landing aboard aircraft carrier | eBay

Snautzer01 said:

1944 Press Photo WWII, a U.S. Navy blimp makes a landing aboard aircraft carrier | eBay

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Great photo snautzer. The US Navy had real sense to use them for maritime patrol, which was a good use for their capabilities, as mentioned before, but the photo kind'a illustrates the impracticality of airships compared to aeroplanes, even at the time. Look at the number of people standing round the ship, they're not just rubberneckers, they are there to hold onto the thing to stop it blowing away before it gets tied down to the deck. If not, they'd have to stay there and hold on for the duration. If it were to stay for awhile, it would need to be tethered to be able to weather cock in the wind, otherwise it would be torn to pieces in short order. Before take off the disposable ballast tanks/bladders would have been filled with water and to enable it to lift this would be gradually released. Airships often used sand bags as ballast and these could be dropped individually to enable a gradual ascent.

nuuumannn said:

Great photo snautzer. The US Navy had real sense to use them for maritime patrol, which was a good use for their capabilities, as mentioned before, but the photo kind'a illustrates the impracticality of airships compared to aeroplanes, even at the time. Look at the number of people standing round the ship, they're not just rubberneckers, they are there to hold onto the thing to stop it blowing away before it gets tied down to the deck. If not, they'd have to stay there and hold on for the duration. If it were to stay for awhile, it would need to be tethered to be able to weather cock in the wind, otherwise it would be torn to pieces in short order. Before take off the disposable ballast tanks/bladders would have been filled with water and to enable it to lift this would be gradually released. Airships often used sand bags as ballast and these could be dropped individually to enable a gradual ascent.

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When waiting for a flight in the Goodyear blimp Europa back in the early 70s at Cardington, there were scores of "groundcrew" waiting to grab onto the ropes to hold it in place. when changing passengers it was one off and the one on every time.