Feasibility of airships in ww2?

[Shortround6]

Two Wasp R-1340 engines, If they were close enough to use the .50 cal they were way too close to the U-boat. 10 man crew.

But the useful lift was under 8,000lbs.

A Boeing 247 airliner using R-1340 engines (but 8-10 years older) had a useful load of around 4500lbs.

 

[GrauGeist]

USS Akron (ZRS-4) and USS Macon (ZRS-5) both had a "useful lift" of over 152,000 pounds (180,000 max.), well beyond that of a blimp.

USN K-74 was shot down by U-134 on 18 July 1943.

There was no recorded encounter between the K-ships and Luftwaffe.

 

[wingnuts]

Cool that those still exist.
We had two airship hangars in Tustin (Orange County, CA.) that finally succumbed to urban sprawl after all these years.
When I was a kid, I went there on occasion with Dad (they were part of the USMC's LTA base) and I was in awe of their size, especially from the inside.

The sheds are still being used, when I was there (1976) one of the sheds was being used by the RAF Museum to store exhibits, I'm not sure if they still do, they are also used for filming TV shows (Red Dwarf) and various movies like Star Wars from the originals up to the present, some Batman movies.

One of the sheds hols the Building Research Establishment and has various multi-story buildings erected inside.

They are both heritage listed and shed one is being restored.

 

[wingnuts]

One of the Cardington sheds was used for assembling the Goodyear Blimp Europa (N2A) back in the early 1970, it blew away one day and crashed into some farm buildings, the company I was working for did the repairs to the gondola, as a result a few of us were given a free flight over Bedford, it was an amazing sensation when the pilot turned off the engines and we just drifted silently across the town.

The sheds are still used for other airship projects.

Cardington Airship Sheds - theStudioTour.com

 

[GrauGeist]

The Goodyear blimp (nit sure which one) used to tie up at a mooring mast surrounded by a golf course near Redondo Beach (Los Angeles county) and when a storm would come in from the Pacific faster than it could leave the area, it would be stored in one of the hangars in Tustin.
They also used one of the hangars for a modern airship project several years ago.

Otherwise, the hangars typically stored Marine Corps helicopters.

There is some vintage post-war photos of Allied and captured Axis aircraft on public display inside and near the blimp hangers, too.

 

[nuuumannn]

Big post, here goes...

As Dimlee mentioned, this has been raised before (geddit?). The first thing we need to look at is what are you referring to when you say 'airships'? Rigid or non-rigid? As we know, the US Navy had a sizeable fleet of non-rigids in use in WW2, as the RNAS had a sizeable fleet of them during the Great War - around 200 all told, although not all at the same time. The British had a big airship building scheme, like the Germans, but British use was far more sensible and successful. The use of rigid airships for military use was/is a supreme waste of resources As has been highlighted, airships in general cost enormous amount of resources to build and operate. In WW1, to build an airship shed large enough to house a big rigid cost about the same as building a destroyer and used more metal. Airship stations were vast and had enormous number of personnel. In the UK at RNAS stations, locals villagers were used for repair of airship envelopes, as nursing staff, or as simple labour force. Those big rigid required around 400 people to walk them out of their hangars if there was no mooring mast. So, very labour intensive and very expensive.

A typical RNAS airship station with two Coastal sheds (for Coastal Class non-rigids) and a big shed, over 700 ft long. Note the hydrogen processing plant at lower right.

EF airship facilities

The loss of airship expertise in the 20s and 30s guaranteed that Britain would not restart its military airship effort after the loss of R.38 (built by Short Brothers at Cardington for the US Navy) and since Germany was not allowed to use airships for military purposes and it was cheaper to built aeroplanes for its Luftwaffe in the 30s (Goring didn't like them - he ordered Graf Zeppelin and Graf Zeppelin II scrapped in 1940), it meant the US Navy was the only country with the resources available to operate them.

On to policy behind their use. The primary role, maritime patrol was probably the best use of airships in warfare and their success is difficult to quantify depending on what you use to measure it. During WW1 the RNAS made the claim that no convoy escorted by airships was successfully attacked by submarine, not true - there was one example - but the effect of having an airship nearby forced the submarines to submerge and remain so. The deterrent factor was enormous and there are accounts of Uboat crews having admitted their escape owing to the presence of airships. Lets recall that submarines in WW1 and in WW2 were slow and unmanoeuvrable underwater, unlike today - their normal speed submerged was between 4 to 6 knots. Non-rigid airships, while not as fast as fixed wing aeroplanes, were quick enough, they could also come to a halt in the air and in WW1 in particular they could carry a sizeable warload and radio equipment, which not all maritime patrol aircraft were equipped with - by the time of WW2 radio equipment had shrunk in size but increased in complexity.

The non-rigid SSZ.59 about to land on the deck of the aircraft carrier HMS Furious in 1918. The Submarine Scout Class ships were quite successful, being small, manoeuvrable and reliable, with a RR Hawk engine that never missed a beat.

SSZ 59

The thing is, by WW2, aeroplanes had improved beyond the capabilities of airships; and while airships carried out patrols lasting as long as 48 hours (the limits being in crew comfort and facilities), aeroplanes were cheaper to build and more reliable and by WW2 could carry big warloads, were faster and better defended than airships. Airships were an expensive luxury borne from necessity and a lack of performance in aeroplanes of the day. Once aeroplanes became better at what they could do, there was no place for airships.

R.29, the only rigid airship to have taken part in the sinking of an enemy submarine, UB 115 in October 1918.

R29 s

As for the lifting gas, the US Navy used helium in its airships, but three of its four big helium rigid airships were lost in accidents - all weather related, so that alone tells you that the dangers of hydrogen were relative (the RNAS had very few hydrogen related disasters - it was down to quality control) and that weather was the bigger killer of airships.

 

[nuuumannn]

This included a 1936 route from Britain to Australia, a journey of 10,500 miles / 16 898 km / 9,200 nmi. I believe that was to be non-stop, but not sure.

The Imperial airship Scheme planned for bases around the Empire as it was, from Canada (built), Egypt (built) India (built), South Africa (mast built, base not finished), Australia and New Zealand (neither begun, but bases surveyed). Of these bases, Canada's was the only one that was used, by R.100, but big mooring masts were also built at Ismalia in Egypt and Karachi in India (now in Pakistan - long story) and a fifth (one at Cardington) built for South Africa but it never got there. The biggest planned airships had to be able to fly between Jo'berg in SA and Adelaide in South Australia non-stop, after flying from the UK to Egypt. From Aussie it was on to Ohakea in New Zealand. The Aussies threw a spanner in the works by not supporting the scheme and this threw the New Zealanders, who were enthusiastic about the idea of a direct air link with the UK, under the bus and as a result of Aussie reluctance it meant that the NZ plans were scrubbed. Ohakea became an RNZAF base eventually. After R.101 crashed in France on its way to India, the whole thing was shelved.

 

[nuuumannn]

The sheds are still used for other airship projects.

Cardington is a fascinating place. I got taken around the sheds once, very interesting. The Buildings Research Establishment has relinquished its control of the hangar there now and the last I heard it was up for sale. I like the fact that the wee town next to the sheds is still called Shortstown to this day owing to the fact that Cardington was built as the Short Brothers airship building works. If anyone visits the area, the chapel and cemetery at Cardington Village is worth a look - inside the chapel is the RAF ensign that R.101 carried on the wall and in the cemetery is the mausoleum for the victims of the airship disaster.

 

[GrauGeist]

A note of interest: the "spire" on the Empire State Building is actually a mooring mast for airships.

 

[swampyankee]

A note of interest: the "spire" on the Empire State Building is actually a mooring mast for airships.

It was the intent, but the idea of getting out of the airships on the top of a tall building seemed to have never caught on.

 

[wingnuts]

Cardington is a fascinating place. I got taken around the sheds once, very interesting. The Buildings Research Establishment has relinquished its control of the hangar there now and the last I heard it was up for sale. I like the fact that the wee town next to the sheds is still called Shortstown to this day owing to the fact that Cardington was built as the Short Brothers airship building works. If anyone visits the area, the chapel and cemetery at Cardington Village is worth a look - inside the chapel is the RAF ensign that R.101 carried on the wall and in the cemetery is the mausoleum for the victims of the airship disaster.

I worked at Cardington in 1976 while waiting for security clearance to work at RAE Bedford (I'd been working at IAI in Israel before that). At Cardington I worked for the DoE Mechanical and Electrical Test Laboratory based in the former R101 Departure and Arrivals building where Glenn Miller had his last performance before his final flight. We occasionally had to do maintenance work on the airship hangar doors.

 

[SaparotRob]

I worked at Cardington in 1976 while waiting for security clearance to work at RAE Bedford (I'd been working at IAI in Israel before that). At Cardington I worked for the DoE Mechanical and Electrical Test Laboratory based in the former R101 Departure and Arrivals building where Glenn Miller had his last performance before his final flight. We occasionally had to do maintenance work on the airship hangar doors.

Were there any "artifacts" from the R-101 days?

 

[wingnuts]

Were there any "artifacts" from the R-101 days?

Apart from the actual buildings I don't think so, there was a pub in a nearby village that had a lot of photos on the walls but I never went there myself.

 

[nuuumannn]

Fascinating stuff Wingnuts. Photos please

Were there any "artifacts" from the R-101 days?

Some pics I took nearly 30 years ago. The sheds from the road in. R.101 was built in the rustic looking one to the left.

Cardington sheds s

A twenty-something year old me providing scale to Hangar Two.

Cardington Hangar 2 s

The RAF Ensign R.101 was flying when it crashed at Allonne near Beauvais, France in St Mary's Chapel.

R.101 Ensign s

The mausoleum where the victims of the crash were interred.

R.101 Monument s

 

[nuuumannn]

At museums around the UK are fragments from the great airships. This is the airship display at the Shuttleworth Collection at Old Warden in Bedfordshire with a nice model of R.100 - note the B747 silhouette below it for scale. The beams above the case are from R.101 and the bed was from R.100. The propeller is from R.101, but was not fitted when it crashed.

Airship display Shuttleworth

R.101 propeller hub.

R.101 prop hub

At the Science Museum, South Kensington, London is this Beardmore Tornado engine from R.101, again, not fitted to the ship when it went down.

Beardmore Tornado

Surviving structure from a German Zeppelin and a model of R.101. The ship's stainless steel structure was built by Boulton & Paul Ltd, Sheffield.

R.101 fragment

At the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington are these bits from R.100, which was constructed by the Airship Guarantee Company at Howden, nearby.

R.100 artefacts

Designed by Barnes Wallis, this model of R.100 and spider joint are in the Barnes Wallis room of the museum.

R.100

Spider joint

 

[SaparotRob]

Great stuff!

 

[windhund116]

Airships (K-Class) were used by USN, for ASW observation platforms.

K-Class Blimps

 

[Koopernic]

I think the Germans surveyed the Chain Home system with airships in peace time, one of the few things I can think it would be better than a plane at.

It's said that on the day that the German Air Ship Graf Zeppelin (Navy Operated I imagine) were surveying the Chain Home system the system had been shut down for maintenance so they missed getting good SIGINT. Chain Home operated at around 10m wavelength (20MHz-55Mz works out to 15m to 6m) whereas German radar at the time operated at 56cm for FLAK, 60-95cm for Seetakt and 1.8m for Freya.

The story that the Germans didn't know about British Radar doesn't pass the smell test. First of all the Germans had their own radar in service, the German Navy actually had useful sets tested and operating before Watson Watt did. Secondly they had captured several portable sets during the Battle of France. They presumably didn't know the extent of the network and its performance.

 

[WATU]

The WW2 US airships plugged a gap in ASW off the east coast. Endurance was a big strength compared to normal aircraft. Not practical to actually attack U-boats, far too big a target and very slow. But great at sitting over a U-boat submerging point while support was called in. Although it was slow it beat a U-boat submerged speed easily enough. They were equipped later on with non-directional sono-buoys which gave them a tracking capability that the U-boat would not be aware of. Peripheral players overall but worth experimenting with given the shortage of ASW assets.

 

[WATU]

Totally inefficient as transport vehicles.