Ditching qualities of WW2 Aircraft

[gruad]

Inspired by Paddy Finucane's last words

Paddy Finucane - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The spitfire apparently was a death trap when it went down over water.

Was there an aircraft that took to water well?

Though it must have been the last of the design requirements.

Have a feeling that the Lancaster was a floater but I would love to hear from those more expert than me.

Was the scoop on the Typhoon a death sentence or worth risking the crash over the bail as you have the raft and basic transmission facilities?

 

[glennasher]

The Typhoon WAS pretty bad. I think Clostermann mentioned it in his book, about a pilot who went down the Channel and it took him all the way to the bottom before he got out. Luckily, it was pretty shallow where he was, about 30 feet down, IIRC (I read about it nearly 50 years ago).
About the only thing I'd want to ditch in, would be a Catalina..........................

 

[MIflyer]

An RAF pilot with a lot of time in Tiffies and Tempests said in his book that ditching was A Voyage To The Bottom Of the Sea. So much so, that if the Sabre started acting up over France the pilots had to consider whether probable death if they ditched in the channel was preferable to a POW camp. The author said that once he did ditch Tiffie , but only after very careful preparation that was enabled because his engine was slowly failing and he had a lot of experience with the airplane that enabled him to skim in tail low. And the problem was not the nose scoop but the wing. Tempests had the same nose scoop and could ditch just fine.

P-51's had poor ditching characteristics due to the belly scoop.

 

[muskeg13]

The B-24 Liberator had notoriously catastrophic ditching capabilities due to it's bomb bay design and overall lighter construction than the more robust B-17 Flying Fortress. Even under the most controlled nearly perfect conditions, the B-24 would always break it's back and rapidly sink, even if it didn't disintegrate on impact. The first video shows a controlled ditching in the James River off of Newport News, Virginia in 1944 conducted the NACA Langley Research Center. The shallow water adjacent to the James River Bridge and ditching with the aircraft traveling towards land prevented its sinking.

B-24 ditching in the james river - Search Videos

www.bing.com

The second video is a 1944 USAAF "propaganda" training film for flight crews, "Ditch and Live." Your chances of survival were better in a B-17, but the B-17 wasn't a duck bred to land on water.

B-17 ditching - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[Barrett]

TBF/TBM Avengers were ditched safely, by far the best known being this from three years ago. Although it's as much a forced landing as a ditching:

World War II-era plane makes emergency landing in surf off of Florida beach

A video posted to Twitter Saturday afternoon showed the single-engine vintage plane make a "soft" landing in the shallow surf near Cocoa Beach

www.usatoday.com

Wartime pix:

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen

Attached is a report on the ditching characteristics of a 1/9 scale model P-38 conducted by the Air Material Command with their recommendations from the test.

Eagledad

 

[mjfur]

P-51D http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51D-manual-5april44.pdf

 

[pinehilljoe]

I remembered there was a NOVA Episode on Flight 19 that discussed ditching characteristics of the TBF/TBM. I was pleasantly surprised to find the episode on YouTube. Its an interesting episode and account of the Flight 19 incident. Skip to the 24 minute point if you want to listen to the bit about ditching characteristics of the plane.

My guess is most WW2 aircraft probably sank like rocks, within 20 to 60 seconds after water ditching.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv3f04N80z4

The episode aired in 1976, I was a Freshman in High School! The episode debunks the so called Bermuda Triangle mystery.

 

[Peter Gunn]

The B-24 Liberator had notoriously catastrophic ditching capabilities due to it's bomb bay design and overall lighter construction than the more robust B-17 Flying Fortress. Even under the most controlled nearly perfect conditions, the B-24 would always break it's back and rapidly sink, even if it didn't disintegrate on impact. The first video shows a controlled ditching in the James River off of Newport News, Virginia in 1944 conducted the NACA Langley Research Center. The shallow water adjacent to the James River Bridge and ditching with the aircraft traveling towards land prevented its sinking.

B-24 ditching in the james river - Search Videos

www.bing.com

The second video is a 1944 USAAF "propaganda" training film for flight crews, "Ditch and Live." Your chances of survival were better in a B-17, but the B-17 wasn't a duck bred to land on water.

B-17 ditching - Search Videos

www.bing.com

What do you do after you've ditched a B-24 in the James, whip out a comb and make sure you're good for the ladies...

Man, those two guys got out of the Liberator and stood around like all they did was drive to the park, talk about cool.

 

[pinehilljoe]

What do you do after you've ditched a B-24 in the James, whip out a comb and make sure you're good for the ladies...

Man, those two guys got out of the Liberator and stood around like all they did was drive to the park, talk about cool.

In Unbroken, Louis Zamperrini gives a first hand account of the B-24 crash landing at sea. He describes the landing as more of crash than a ditch.

 

[fubar57]

Somewhere on this site is another thread about this. Most of the info came from Pilot's Notes with some saying, "Do not attempt to ditch this aircraft"

 

[Peter Gunn]

Somewhere on this site is another thread about this. Most of the info came from Pilot's Notes with some saying, "Do not attempt to ditch this aircraft"

I don't doubt it, man that sucker landing in the James cracked in half in a heartbeat.

 

[fubar57]

Bailing out or Ditching at Sea: Which was Safer?

Are any of you aware of any statistics or analysis about whether it was safer to bail out or ditch at sea during WWII? I imagine that it might have varied with the aircraft and location. For example, the B-24 was known to have some especially bad characteristics when ditched, but still, is...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

This is from the Statistical Summary of 8th Air Force Operations, European Theater 17 Aug 1942 to 8 May 1945. Air Sea Rescue figures.

To end February 1944 the figures include all USAAF personnel, after that just 8th AF. It is sourced from the RAF Air/Sea Rescue Monthly Summaries and as such probably underestimates the men involved but also probably does not count men rescued by the Germans. It will be counting airmen killed in the ditchings as not rescued.

The first set of data is the grand totals, then B-17, then B-24. no is number of men thought to be involved, either by baling out over the sea or being in aircraft that ditched.

Totals \\ B-17 \\ B-24
Month \ no \ saved \ % \\ no \ saved \ % \\ no \ saved \ %
Jan-43 \ 41 \ 0 \ 0.0 \\ 31 \ 0 \ 0.0 \\ 10 \ 0 \ 0.0
Feb-43 \ 63 \ 1 \ 1.6 \\ 20 \ 0 \ 0.0 \\ 43 \ 1 \ 2.3
Mar-43 \ 40 \ 9 \ 22.5 \\ 31 \ 9 \ 29.0 \\ 9 \ 0 \ 0.0
Apr-43 \ 44 \ 2 \ 4.5 \\ 30 \ 0 \ 0.0 \\ 10 \ 0 \ 0.0
May-43 \ 202 \ 20 \ 9.9 \\ 197 \ 20 \ 10.2 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Jun-43 \ 196 \ 70 \ 35.7 \\ 191 \ 67 \ 35.1 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Jul-43 \ 210 \ 141 \ 67.1 \\ 196 \ 139 \ 70.9 \\ 10 \ 0 \ 0.0
Aug-43 \ 111 \ 63 \ 56.8 \\ 91 \ 57 \ 62.6 \\ 20 \ 6 \ 30.0
Sep-43 \ 243 \ 165 \ 67.9 \\ 211 \ 152 \ 72.0 \\ 28 \ 12 \ 42.9
Oct-43 \ 193 \ 31 \ 16.1 \\ 141 \ 31 \ 22.0 \\ 50 \ 0 \ 0.0
Nov-43 \ 190 \ 38 \ 20.0 \\ 130 \ 38 \ 29.2 \\ 51 \ 0 \ 0.0
Dec-43 \ 445 \ 82 \ 18.4 \\ 390 \ 71 \ 18.2 \\ 50 \ 10 \ 20.0
Jan-44 \ 231 \ 29 \ 12.6 \\ 182 \ 28 \ 15.4 \\ 43 \ 0 \ 0.0
Feb-44 \ 237 \ 59 \ 24.9 \\ 179 \ 51 \ 28.5 \\ 53 \ 8 \ 15.1
Mar-44 \ 243 \ 96 \ 39.5 \\ 140 \ 69 \ 49.3 \\ 81 \ 19 \ 23.5
Apr-44 \ 276 \ 109 \ 39.5 \\ 180 \ 61 \ 33.9 \\ 70 \ 35 \ 50.0
May-44 \ 272 \ 160 \ 58.8 \\ 187 \ 127 \ 67.9 \\ 70 \ 24 \ 34.3
Jun-44 \ 242 \ 109 \ 45.0 \\ 142 \ 72 \ 50.7 \\ 91 \ 31 \ 34.1
Jul-44 \ 236 \ 135 \ 57.2 \\ 126 \ 90 \ 71.4 \\ 97 \ 36 \ 37.1
Aug-44 \ 227 \ 110 \ 48.5 \\ 131 \ 54 \ 41.2 \\ 75 \ 41 \ 54.7
Sep-44 \ 102 \ 63 \ 61.8 \\ 54 \ 36 \ 66.7 \\ 39 \ 20 \ 51.3
Oct-44 \ 56 \ 15 \ 26.8 \\ 45 \ 10 \ 22.2 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Nov-44 \ 102 \ 11 \ 10.8 \\ 81 \ 9 \ 11.1 \\ 12 \ 0 \ 0.0
Dec-44 \ 84 \ 15 \ 17.9 \\ 50 \ 9 \ 18.0 \\ 28 \ 4 \ 14.3
Jan-45 \ 97 \ 31 \ 32.0 \\ 40 \ 16 \ 40.0 \\ 49 \ 14 \ 28.6
Feb-45 \ 99 \ 37 \ 37.4 \\ 51 \ 23 \ 45.1 \\ 36 \ 11 \ 30.6
Mar-45 \ 40 \ 6 \ 15.0 \\ 31 \ 2 \ 6.5 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Apr-45 \ 40 \ 16 \ 40.0 \\ 35 \ 15 \ 42.9 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
May-45 \ 26 \ 10 \ 38.5 \\ 23 \ 10 \ 43.5 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0

1943 \ 1978 \ 622 \ 31.4 \\ 1659 \ 584 \ 35.2 \\ 281 \ 29 \ 10.3
1944 \ 2308 \ 911 \ 39.5 \\ 1497 \ 616 \ 41.1 \\ 659 \ 218 \ 33.1
1945 \ 302 \ 100 \ 33.1 \\ 180 \ 66 \ 36.7 \\ 85 \ 25 \ 29.4
Total \ 4588 \ 1633 \ 35.6 \\ 3336 \ 1266 \ 37.9 \\ 1025 \ 272 \ 26.5

The fighter data is easier to show by type, P-38

Month \ no \ saved \ %
Oct-43 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Nov-43 \ 2 \ 0 \ 0.0
Dec-43 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Jan-44 \ 2 \ 0 \ 0.0
Feb-44 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Mar-44 \ 4 \ 3 \ 75.0
Apr-44 \ 5 \ 2 \ 40.0
May-44 \ 3 \ 1 \ 33.3
Jun-44 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Jul-44 \ 3 \ 2 \ 66.7
Aug-44 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Sep-44 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Oct-44 \ 2 \ 0 \ 0.0

1943 \ 4 \ 1 \ 25.0
1944 \ 23 \ 11 \ 47.8
Total \ 27 \ 12 \ 44.4

P-47,

Month \ no \ saved \ %
Apr-43 \ 4 \ 2 \ 50.0
May-43 \ 5 \ 0 \ 0.0
Jun-43 \ 5 \ 3 \ 60.0
Jul-43 \ 4 \ 2 \ 50.0
Aug-43 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Sep-43 \ 4 \ 1 \ 25.0
Oct-43 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Nov-43 \ 7 \ 0 \ 0.0
Dec-43 \ 4 \ 0 \ 0.0
Jan-44 \ 4 \ 1 \ 25.0
Feb-44 \ 4 \ 0 \ 0.0
Mar-44 \ 8 \ 4 \ 50.0
Apr-44 \ 4 \ 3 \ 75.0
May-44 \ 4 \ 4 \ 100.0
Jun-44 \ 3 \ 3 \ 100.0
Jul-44 \ 3 \ 2 \ 66.7
Aug-44 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Sep-44 \ 1 \ 1 \ 100.0
Oct-44 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0.0
Nov-44 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Dec-44 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Jan-45 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0

1943 \ 34 \ 8 \ 23.5
1944 \ 34 \ 19 \ 55.9
1945 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0.0
Total \ 69 \ 27 \ 39.1

P-51,

Month \ no \ saved \ %
Mar-44 \ 10 \ 1 \ 10.0
Apr-44 \ 17 \ 8 \ 47.1
May-44 \ 8 \ 4 \ 50.0
Jun-44 \ 5 \ 2 \ 40.0
Jul-44 \ 7 \ 5 \ 71.4
Aug-44 \ 19 \ 13 \ 68.4
Sep-44 \ 7 \ 5 \ 71.4
Oct-44 \ 9 \ 5 \ 55.6
Nov-44 \ 8 \ 2 \ 25.0
Dec-44 \ 5 \ 2 \ 40.0
Jan-45 \ 7 \ 1 \ 14.3
Feb-45 \ 12 \ 3 \ 25.0
Mar-45 \ 9 \ 4 \ 44.4
Apr-45 \ 5 \ 1 \ 20.0
May-45 \ 3 \ 0 \ 0.0

1944 \ 95 \ 47 \ 49.5
1945 \ 36 \ 9 \ 25.0
Total \ 131 \ 56 \ 42.7

Finally the data is probably not big enough to look at seasonal variations but the table below is 1943 and 1944 combined, by month of the year,

Month \ no \ saved \ %
Jan \ 272 \ 29 \ 10.7
Feb \ 300 \ 60 \ 20.0
Mar \ 283 \ 105 \ 37.1
Apr \ 320 \ 111 \ 34.7
May \ 474 \ 180 \ 38.0
Jun \ 438 \ 179 \ 40.9
Jul \ 446 \ 276 \ 61.9
Aug \ 338 \ 173 \ 51.2
Sep \ 345 \ 228 \ 66.1
Oct \ 249 \ 46 \ 18.5
Nov \ 292 \ 49 \ 16.8
Dec \ 529 \ 97 \ 18.3

Be in a fighter, then a B-17, and do it in the warmer months.

 

[ThomasP]

Very interesting data. Thank you for putting it together and posting it.