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I'm trying to come up with some simple yet realistic rules for using aircraft in a miniatures boardgame.
I want to express a fighter's dogfight ability in a number, preferably ranging from 1 to 10 (10 being the best).
I'd like to be able to add as many aircraft as I see fit, so I'm not just looking for what the best fighter or dive bomber was. Instead, I'd like your opinions on the dogfoghting prowess of all planes below, hoping to get a reasonable idea of what plane was better or worse than what other plane.
BTW I searched for similar topics, but could only find "BEST xxx" topics for the most part... if anyone knows a topic which already handles this matter, please point me to it!
Obviously, you don't have to rank each and every plane in my list, please feel free to add any comments and comparisons about any planes there!
With dogfighting, I don't just mean turning inside each other, but anything to try and get in a position to shoot down the enemy without fleeing, ie rolling, diving, pulling up, ....
OK, now for the list (I'm interested in variants too, as long as they are clearly better or at least different).
Spitfire Mk I, V, IX
Hawker Hurricane
Hawker Typhoon
Gloster Gladiator
Gloster Meteor
Messerschmitt Bf 109E
Messerschmitt 110
Messerschmitt 262
Messerschmitt 163
Focke-Wulf 190A-x
Dornier 335
F4U Corsair
P-51 Mustang
Lockheed Lightning
Any early war US fighters
Any Russian fighters
Zero
N1J Shiden-Kai
Any dogfighting info on any of these (and any WW2 plane for that matter) is very welcome!
Well what time of WW2 are you looking for.
The reason I ask is because if you look at what aircraft you have, they are from all different time frames.
If you are talking 1939 and 1940 and have the Spit, Hurricane, and Bf 109E you cant have the Me 163 or Me 262 or Meteor up there as well as others.
You have a lot of reading to do. The problem you pose is very complex and has a matrix of options:
Which variants of Aircraft? Zero A6M3 or Zero A6M5? P-51D or P-51 H?
What altitude?
weapons load out?
pilot experience?
Maueverabilty?
speed in a dive?
speed in a climb?
... and many other variables
You have a lot of reading to do. The problem you pose is very complex and has a matrix of options:
Which variants of Aircraft? Zero A6M3 or Zero A6M5? P-51D or P-51 H?
What altitude?
weapons load out?
pilot experience?
Maueverabilty?
speed in a dive?
speed in a climb?
... and many other variables
This may seem overly complicated but it's not. Different tactics were developed to exploit the weakness of your enemy and accentuate your own strengths..
What does it mean to be a good dogfighter? The Zero was more maneuverable than the Hellcat but if a Hellcat pilot new what he was doing and used the proper tactics, the Zero was meat on the table.
without including a whole range of variables, any values you assign to planes would be circumspect... u may as well draw values randomly out of a hat.
This would be a fun project for a computer programmer. That way you could include a myriad of variables.
The old Windows 95 game, SSI's Allied General, assigns values to different fighters for initiative, attack, defense, ground attack ect bu it all was to random for me.
Zeus said:Theoretically, aircraft from any time period could meet each other in the game (with most late war models easily defeating most early war models), however I would already be very happy with comparisons between planes of the same period and theatre, ie how did the me262, me163 and meteor compare dogfight-wise etc.
why take the Bf 109E when you got Bf 109F, Bf 109G and so forth or the P-51D and not the P-51A,B, or C.
Thanks for your insights. Definitely very interested in these thoughts!
A little background: the game is Axis Allies miniatures, a mainly land units-based tactical/skirmish level board game. The way aircraft are handled by default is just to place them on a hex and have them attack a target in range from there, with only AA units in the vicinity getting a slim chance to make it harder for them to make their "attack run".
There's little if any real chance for fighters to stop enemy aircraft from attacking ground units, and that's what I'm trying to introduce.
The game is a "beer and pretzels" game, so by no means an accurate war/battle simulation, and I'm trying to have my aircraft rules match this criterium ("keep it simple") while still yielding somewhat realistic results.
Basically this means I will have aircraft duke it out with each other before being able to teleport to the hex board and attack ground units. So I do have to catch an aircraft attacking another one and ultimately destroying it or fighting it off in just a few dice rolls.
I do happen to have separate stats for speed, dogfight prowess, firepower, and defense/armor, hence my interest in just the chances of one plane getting a shot at another one; the shot itself and whether it damages the enemy enough to put him out of the fight is handled separately. I cannot however add stats for climb rate, service ceiling, dive/roll/turn etc, as this would make it all way too complicated for the purposes of this game. I'll have to catch these features in the single "dogfight" stat, hence this topic.
Thanks again for reading this rant, and keep the thought coming!
Plane------Initiative-----Attack-----Defense
Spitfire I------4-------------4-----------5
Hurricane-----3-------------4-----------6
Spitfire V-----5-------------6-----------5
Spitfire IX----6-------------6-----------5
Typhoon-----6-------------8-----------6
Tempest-----7-------------8-----------6
Gladiator-----2-------------4-----------4
Meteor-I-----6-------------8-----------5
Meteor-III----8-------------8-----------6
BF 109E3-----4-------------5-----------4
BF 109F2-----5-------------3-----------5
BF 109G2-----6-------------4-----------5
BF 106G6-----5-------------6-----------5
Bf 109G10----6-------------6-----------5
BF 110C------3-------------5-----------6
BF 110G------3-------------7-----------6
Me-262A-----9------------10-----------4
Me-163A-----10------------6-----------5
Fw-190A4----6-------------6-----------6
Fw-190A8----6-------------7-----------6
Fw-190D9----7-------------6-----------5
Ta-152H-----8-------------8-----------5
Do-335------8-------------8-----------7
He-162A2----9-------------5-----------6
P-38F--------5-------------6-----------6
P-38L--------6-------------6-----------7
P-39Q--------5-------------5-----------5
P-40E--------4-------------4-----------5
P-47C--------6-------------6-----------8
P-47D--------6-------------7-----------8
P-51B--------7-------------4-----------5
P-51D--------7-------------6-----------5
MS 406-------3-------------4-----------4
D 521--------4--------------4-----------5