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Discussion in 'Aviation' started by blue swede, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. blue swede

    blue swede New Member

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    Scenario: It's May 1946. The Battle of the Bulge was successful, splitting the Allied forces and almost creating a second Dunkirk. Meanwhile Stallin had died just as the Soviet forces were about to enter Germany. The American atomic bomb tests have failed, but the Japanese has negotiated a surrender to the United States via the Soviets.
    The second push for Germany is about to begin for the Allies, but the new Soviet government has called a truce with the Reich.
    Question: What airplanes are being used? And with what result?
    :?:
     
  2. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    This almost sounds like the book The Fox on the Rhine by Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson.

    To answer this with the best of my knowledge we have to know if you really mean May 1946 or May 1945 because the the Battle of the Bulge was fought between 16 Dec 1944 and 28 Jan 1945 so that would put the timeline around May 1945 instead of May 1946 correct? So in that case:

    If you actually meant May 1945 these would be the major aircraft that would be involved (I am only going to cover fighters and fighter bombers however:

    Allies: P-51D, P-47M, Spitfire F.22, Typhoon IB, and Mosquito.

    Germany: Bf-109G, Bf-109K, Me-262A, Fw-190A, Fw-190D, Ju-88G, and Ju-87G Stuka.

    In this scenerio the outcome would not change just the date of the surrender would change maybe from May 1945 to Sept 1945. The end would still come. The Allies had an overwehlming superiority in numbers of aircraft. They could also replace there losses easier than the Germans. On top of all of this the Germans were having lots of problems with fuel shortages. Basically the only thing that would happen is the war would be prolonged for a little while longer

    If you actually meant 1946 then the aircraft that would be involved in my opinion would be:

    Allies: P-51H, P-47N, P-80, Meteor, Spitfire F.22, Mossie, and Typhoon IB.

    Germany: Bf-109K, Fw-190D, Ta-152H, Me-262A, Ta-183, and possibly the Messerschmitt P.1011.

    In this scenerio honestly I dont see the outcome of the war changing either for the exact same reasons that I stated above. The Germans may have still had the uperhand in superiority in the types of aircraft such as the Ta-183 however they would not have been able to manufacture eneogh and fuel would keep most of them on the groung. It would be a case of too little too late. War would be a victory for the allies by September.
     
  3. blue swede

    blue swede New Member

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    Yeah, I did mean 1946. I thought that way the Germans would have had enough time to regroup and redeploy. Also that possiby would give them time to regain aircraft production, maybe with newer types.
    In the meantime the US would have the option of bringing Pacific air forces into play with interesting matchups. (Corsair vs. Fw190d?) (Me262 vs. B29?)
    Nope, I didn't read that book, though it sounds like I would enjoy it. I just made it up of the fly.
    Thanks,
    Happy Thanksgiving to you all.
    :)
     
  4. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

    Okay well since we are in 1946 as you said. I agree it would be Corsair vs. Fw-190D which that would make for an interesting comparison. I do not think the Me-262 would tackle the B-29 however. I think it would have been left to work on the lower flying B-17's. In 1946 the Germans would have already been producing the Ta-183 which was far superior to the Me-262 and was scheduled to fly about a week after the war ended had it not ended in 1945. This aircraft more than likely would have been used then to get at the B-29's even though the Ta-183 was not designed as some people think because of the B-29.

    In the end though German production never would have been allowed to be built back up. The allies would not have stopped bombing Germany to the ground because of the situations that you started up there. Also the Germans still would have had problems with lack of Fuel. More than likely it still would not have even made it to 1946 and if it had, it would have ended by September.
     
  5. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    B-29s and Lincolns for heavy bombers, Meteor, Vampire, Tempest, Spitfire, P-51 and P-80 for fighters+ Mossies and Beaus still plying their trade against ships, nightfighters etc
     
  6. blue swede

    blue swede New Member

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    I'm thinking that the ground attacks would be left to the Tempest Corsairs for the remaining Allies, while the F80 and F8F Bearcat to handle the sweeps for German fighters. The night fighting would be handled by the Black Widows. The P51 would excort the B29's.

    On the German side, maybe the jets on the drawing board would have replaced the Me262's for attacks against bombers, leaving them for ground/ship attacks. The FW's provide air cover for troop movements lead by Erich Hartmann!?

    While it's true that the Germans were oil poor, I thought they had worked on replacing that with synthetics. With the breathing space the scenario provides.....maybe?

    The Allies probably were going to have problems with their supply line also. :rolleyes:
     
  7. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    I don't want to sound like a broken record on this one but I think the B-29 would of stayed in the Pacific unless things got really out of hand. It was already planned to replace all B-17s and B-24s with the Convair B-32 which was a close performer to the -29 (See the archived threads on the B-32). Between the -32 and the Lincoln, the end result would of been the same.....

    Oh yea, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
     
  8. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I can agree with that FBJ.
     
  9. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    I don't think the Black Widow was the answer for Allied nightfighters, the Mosquito had better performance in all areas wheras the Widow was very large and much more of a target
     
  10. book1182

    book1182 Member

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    I agree with mosquitoman. But, I would keep the Black Widow on to fly interdiction night missions on German airbases. It could care a very useful bomb load.
     
  11. mosquitoman

    mosquitoman Active Member

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    You do have a point there...
     
  12. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Ill agree. I personally dont think the Blackwidow was a very good night fighter. It had good qualities though.
     
  13. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    and ofcourse now the tempest could escort lincolns into germany by day if nessisary, and the Fury and vampire would've seen service too, although, would the germans have been able to continue their nuclear bomb project long enough to get one deployed??
     
  14. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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