- Thread starter
- #21
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
So the laminar wing on a Mooney (modern general aviation) does nothing for the speed these aircraft are known?
Has a Merlin ever been put into a P-39?
- Thread starter MikeGazdik
- Start date
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drgondog
Major
????
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
You've definitely got some points to consider
I've not read Lednicer's report yet, though it is downloaded
Mike's enquiry seemed to have two threads to it
did anyone fit a Merlin to a P-39
would the laminar-flow wing of the P-63 have made it a good racer
first one seems done and well, we're thrashing out the pros and cons of laminar-flow design so I'd say we're bang on topic
Good to be here - really.
drgondog
Major
deleted - something I was about to say based purely on speculation
- Thread starter
- #25
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
Sorry if I am dragging this out. But from what I have read from Colin and drgondog, laminar wings don't really add anything to the speed of the Mustang? Thats what Im getting from what has been said, I my be confused.
Yes this started out with my questiong on a Merlin Airacobra, but with the knowledge being posted here I am intrigued.
Yes this started out with my questiong on a Merlin Airacobra, but with the knowledge being posted here I am intrigued.
drgondog
Major
I did not say that.
Specifically the Mustang (and P-63) laminar flow wings both had less drag than the conventional wing designs that had max thickness at the 30% Chord range.
So yes, the laminar flow wing contributed to less drag, crucial for increased speed with same Hp. The parasite drag for the airframe is also crucial.
The disadvantage for the laminar flow wings is that, as Colin pointed out, the manufacturing tolerances of the wing surfaces are more important, maintenance in the field to keep dirt/mud off the wings is important, and the CL of the wing is both less (typically) and reaches that point at a lower angle of attack - requiring more design scrutiny for low speed and/or high angle of attack handling charcteristics...
I suspect the fuselage of the Mustang was simply a better design from a parasite drag standpoint - as the primary difference between the P-63 and P-51 B/C/D/K/H top speed.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Sorry, that didn't read right
You've definitely given me some points to consider
- Thread starter
- #29
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
Thankyou, much more clear to me as to what you were saying.
Watanbe; I don't know a whole bunch about the Kingcobra as compared to the Airacobra. The Allison was some 1500hp, and I believe did incorporate a different supercharger than the earllier Allisons which helped it work at higher altitudes, though I don't think as well as the Merlin. It had laminar wings also. I don't know if it was the added power at altitude or the wings but they could do a little over 400mph for speed. Good, but they came out when the P-51 was THE plane, so the U.S. didn't want them. The internal layout of the aircraft limited fuel capacity so they had poor range without droptanks. All that aside, I still like the P-39 and P-63 for the innovation. And arguably Airacobra may be one of the best names for a fighter. Plus I think they look "sexy" sitting up high on its tall gear. Some planes only look right in the air.
Thanks! How did they compare to something like a FW190 or a Me109? I'm assuming they were inferior? The Kingcobra has always been a mystery to me because as you said the 400mph speed is quite impressive and looking at the plane its hard to see it failing!
- Thread starter
- #31
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
The P-39 was used extensively in combat, producing Russian aces that fought against the Bf 109's and Fw 190's. But the P-63 was a late war airplane. The Russians got the vast majority of them, but from what I understand very few went to combat. By then the Russians were able to keep themselves supplied with thier own Yaks and LaGGs.
I know of the Russians success with the P39, although they did fight at a lower altitude! I always wondered of the operational history of the P-63! I have always highly rated the Yak 9 and LaGG 5/7 and the Russians must of thought highly enough of the cobra series to operate them along with their own fighters!
Marshall_Stack
Senior Airman
The only thing I heard about the P-63 in combat is that the Russians used them in against the Japanese when they invaded Manchuria in 1945. Not much else though....
TheMustangRider
Senior Airman
I read somewhere on the web that after the Russians recieved both the P-39 and the P-40, the found the P-40 to be an inferior fighter and not suitable for the close-support missions they were executing in the Russian front and on the other hand the only disadvantage they found on the P-39 is that it was not available in enough numbers and they even asked the US to stop sending P-40s and send as much P-39s as possible.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
P-63 Combat Record
Total P-63 production was 3,303 airframes. 2,421 of these were shipped to the Soviet Union and just over 100 to the Armee d l'Air. The USAAF held on to a few for training.
The USAAF's interest went no further than target practice for bomber gunners after their High Command realised the shortcomings of the bombers' ability to defend itself using gunnery. This was Operation Pinball and entailed a P-63 being shot at with frangible rounds that lit up a light on the a/c when strikes were recorded.
Two P-63s were sent to England, where considerable interest in the merits of laminar-flow led them to take delivery of a P-63A-6 (42-68937) and a P-63A-9 (42-69423) to the RAE at Farnborough. In the course of its study, the A-6 was fitted with the streamlined bubble canopy. This a/c was damaged in a landing accident and was SOC on 18Oct45. The rest of the laminar-flow study was undertaken by the A-9 and it was finally scrapped Sep48.
One Central American country received a batch of P-63s, this being Honduras, taking on charge 5 P-63E-1s and along with 6 P-38Ls made up the mainstay of their airforce for over 5 years. One of these was damaged and provided the surviving 4 with much-needed spares. Two more were damaged and eventually all of them were replaced by F4Us.
P-63s were ferried to the Soviet Union in larger numbers than all other recipients combined, starting with the P-63C, pausing at way-stations in Alaska and Iran (imagine that). It is widely held that the P-63's reputation was short-changed as it never received the local press of the Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik, despite its proven abilities in ground attack and tank-busting.
The Soviets continued military action in the Far East, furthering their acquisition of Manchuria by annexing Sakhalin Island and parts of the Kuriles chain. The Japanese, though exhausted from WWII, fought back and destroyed 62 Soviet aircraft of all types, including 1 P-63, the details of which are unknown.
Just before the end of WWII, the USAAF began transferring P-63s to France for use by the Armee de l'Air. All a/c supplied were the penultimate P-63C-5 model.
The French originally placed an order for 300 a/c though this was later reduced to about one third of that. An initial contract for 40 a/c was signed on 03May45 and a second for 70 a/c on 04Jun45, totalling 112 a/c to which two more were added.
The P-63 was originally intended to directly supplant the existing P-39Q and L fighters but some went straight from the docks into storage. Others were used to equip several Armee de l'Air squadrons; GC9 based in Meknes, Morocco became the first to fully equip on the type.
Trouble brewed for the French in Indo-China, where the locals felt they had earned the right to govern themselves after contributing to the ousting of the Japanese during the previous war. The colonial powers had other ideas and armed conflict was on the cards.
85 P-63s were shipped to Indo-China between July and October 1950 for use by 5 Groupes on a rotational basis.
Most of these were the a/c that had been shipped straight into storage. All were armed with the standard centreline M-10 37mm cannon with 58 rounds plus 4 x .50cal machine guns, 2 in the nose and 2 in underwing gondolas. A 175gal contoured belly tank was usuallly carried and this could be supplemented by 75gal tanks outboard of the underwing guns. This fuel could be swapped for napalm or 2 500lb bombs. The centreline rack was wired for bomb release and provision was made for paired wing launchers for up to 4 HVAR rockets.
30 August 50: Ground attack sorties by 5 P-63s against Viet Minh troops.
04 September: Strafing missions against guerilla hide-outs and storage dumps; their cannons and machine guns were used to deadly effect.
Further shipments of P-63s were made to Saigon and the French had about 50 a/c in-theatre with about 10 held at an MU, Parc 482.
10 January: Less than spectacular debut for napalm
19 January: Loss of first P-63 to flak
The Viet Minh, by now being supplied by the Chinese, were getting stronger and French installations were occasionally overrun in the frequent attacks.
13 February: Air support for the garrison at Phu Loc failed to prevent it from falling
3 August: Having flown 3,703 hours of combat sorties in their P-63s, GCI/5 prepared to return home. II/5 and III/6 maintained the pressure on the guerillas but without appreciably decreasing the Viet Minh's hold on the country. The Armee de l'Air found themselves frustrated by an enemy who rarely went 'toe to toe' with them in pitched battles.
9 August: P-63 lost to flak
4 October: P-63 damaged by flak in the same area
6 October: A detachment of P-63s was sent to Lang Son to provide cover for a supply route favoured by the French.
17 October: Lt Perrotte made an emergency landing on Lang Son after being hit by small-arms fire and his a/c started streaming glycol. The French had to abandon Lang Son quickly and another P-63 was sent to destroy Perrotte's machine with a strafing run.
Normandie-Niemen arrive in-theatre, commanded by Capitaine Billoin.
3 November: III/6 moved to Cat Bi near Haiphong, where it steadily increased its sortie rate against an increasingly tough enemy who had gained control of the countryside, if not the towns.
12 February: III/6 had flown its 1,000th sortie.
March: Normandie-Niemen P-63s used for napalm against large-scale attack on Viet Minh infantry at Tra Vinh.
5 May: Loss of P-63 to flak
14 September: Loss of P-63 to flak
22 October: Loss of P-63 to flak
By the time of that last loss, the P-63 was being supplanted by the F8-F
December: Enough F8-Fs in-theatre, P-63 sorties began to tail off
January 51: 8 P-63s attack ground targets at Cho Phong
19 January: 2 P-63s fly armed recce along Thai Nguyen, flak claim one a/c
20 January: Loss of P-63 to flak
28 January: 2 P-63s failed to return from rocket strike south of Thai Nguyen
In 76 missions, I/9 lost 8 pilots and 9 a/c.
Viet Minh troops were now engaging crack French regiments in pitched battles, the P-63s supported with bombing, strafing and rocket attacks against troops and strongholds wherever they could be found. Eventually, the F8-F and F6-F completely replaced the P-63s and the F8-F in particular proved its superiority over the P-63 in the harsh conditions of Indo-China.
30 April: 24 P-63s bombed Quynh Lu, 21 of the 24 bombs hit the target.
At the end of their service 25 P-63s had been lost on ops or in accidents, 20 were SOC as war weary and 40 still in good condition were earmarked for shipment to Africa.
Sources
Bell P-39 Airacobra
Robert F Dorr Jerry C Scutts
Crowood Aviation Series
ISBN:1 86126 348 1
Pages 134 - 144
not typed verbatim
Total P-63 production was 3,303 airframes. 2,421 of these were shipped to the Soviet Union and just over 100 to the Armee d l'Air. The USAAF held on to a few for training.
The USAAF's interest went no further than target practice for bomber gunners after their High Command realised the shortcomings of the bombers' ability to defend itself using gunnery. This was Operation Pinball and entailed a P-63 being shot at with frangible rounds that lit up a light on the a/c when strikes were recorded.
Two P-63s were sent to England, where considerable interest in the merits of laminar-flow led them to take delivery of a P-63A-6 (42-68937) and a P-63A-9 (42-69423) to the RAE at Farnborough. In the course of its study, the A-6 was fitted with the streamlined bubble canopy. This a/c was damaged in a landing accident and was SOC on 18Oct45. The rest of the laminar-flow study was undertaken by the A-9 and it was finally scrapped Sep48.
One Central American country received a batch of P-63s, this being Honduras, taking on charge 5 P-63E-1s and along with 6 P-38Ls made up the mainstay of their airforce for over 5 years. One of these was damaged and provided the surviving 4 with much-needed spares. Two more were damaged and eventually all of them were replaced by F4Us.
P-63s were ferried to the Soviet Union in larger numbers than all other recipients combined, starting with the P-63C, pausing at way-stations in Alaska and Iran (imagine that). It is widely held that the P-63's reputation was short-changed as it never received the local press of the Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik, despite its proven abilities in ground attack and tank-busting.
The Soviets continued military action in the Far East, furthering their acquisition of Manchuria by annexing Sakhalin Island and parts of the Kuriles chain. The Japanese, though exhausted from WWII, fought back and destroyed 62 Soviet aircraft of all types, including 1 P-63, the details of which are unknown.
Just before the end of WWII, the USAAF began transferring P-63s to France for use by the Armee de l'Air. All a/c supplied were the penultimate P-63C-5 model.
The French originally placed an order for 300 a/c though this was later reduced to about one third of that. An initial contract for 40 a/c was signed on 03May45 and a second for 70 a/c on 04Jun45, totalling 112 a/c to which two more were added.
The P-63 was originally intended to directly supplant the existing P-39Q and L fighters but some went straight from the docks into storage. Others were used to equip several Armee de l'Air squadrons; GC9 based in Meknes, Morocco became the first to fully equip on the type.
Trouble brewed for the French in Indo-China, where the locals felt they had earned the right to govern themselves after contributing to the ousting of the Japanese during the previous war. The colonial powers had other ideas and armed conflict was on the cards.
85 P-63s were shipped to Indo-China between July and October 1950 for use by 5 Groupes on a rotational basis.
Most of these were the a/c that had been shipped straight into storage. All were armed with the standard centreline M-10 37mm cannon with 58 rounds plus 4 x .50cal machine guns, 2 in the nose and 2 in underwing gondolas. A 175gal contoured belly tank was usuallly carried and this could be supplemented by 75gal tanks outboard of the underwing guns. This fuel could be swapped for napalm or 2 500lb bombs. The centreline rack was wired for bomb release and provision was made for paired wing launchers for up to 4 HVAR rockets.
30 August 50: Ground attack sorties by 5 P-63s against Viet Minh troops.
04 September: Strafing missions against guerilla hide-outs and storage dumps; their cannons and machine guns were used to deadly effect.
Further shipments of P-63s were made to Saigon and the French had about 50 a/c in-theatre with about 10 held at an MU, Parc 482.
10 January: Less than spectacular debut for napalm
19 January: Loss of first P-63 to flak
The Viet Minh, by now being supplied by the Chinese, were getting stronger and French installations were occasionally overrun in the frequent attacks.
13 February: Air support for the garrison at Phu Loc failed to prevent it from falling
3 August: Having flown 3,703 hours of combat sorties in their P-63s, GCI/5 prepared to return home. II/5 and III/6 maintained the pressure on the guerillas but without appreciably decreasing the Viet Minh's hold on the country. The Armee de l'Air found themselves frustrated by an enemy who rarely went 'toe to toe' with them in pitched battles.
9 August: P-63 lost to flak
4 October: P-63 damaged by flak in the same area
6 October: A detachment of P-63s was sent to Lang Son to provide cover for a supply route favoured by the French.
17 October: Lt Perrotte made an emergency landing on Lang Son after being hit by small-arms fire and his a/c started streaming glycol. The French had to abandon Lang Son quickly and another P-63 was sent to destroy Perrotte's machine with a strafing run.
Normandie-Niemen arrive in-theatre, commanded by Capitaine Billoin.
3 November: III/6 moved to Cat Bi near Haiphong, where it steadily increased its sortie rate against an increasingly tough enemy who had gained control of the countryside, if not the towns.
12 February: III/6 had flown its 1,000th sortie.
March: Normandie-Niemen P-63s used for napalm against large-scale attack on Viet Minh infantry at Tra Vinh.
5 May: Loss of P-63 to flak
14 September: Loss of P-63 to flak
22 October: Loss of P-63 to flak
By the time of that last loss, the P-63 was being supplanted by the F8-F
December: Enough F8-Fs in-theatre, P-63 sorties began to tail off
January 51: 8 P-63s attack ground targets at Cho Phong
19 January: 2 P-63s fly armed recce along Thai Nguyen, flak claim one a/c
20 January: Loss of P-63 to flak
28 January: 2 P-63s failed to return from rocket strike south of Thai Nguyen
In 76 missions, I/9 lost 8 pilots and 9 a/c.
Viet Minh troops were now engaging crack French regiments in pitched battles, the P-63s supported with bombing, strafing and rocket attacks against troops and strongholds wherever they could be found. Eventually, the F8-F and F6-F completely replaced the P-63s and the F8-F in particular proved its superiority over the P-63 in the harsh conditions of Indo-China.
30 April: 24 P-63s bombed Quynh Lu, 21 of the 24 bombs hit the target.
At the end of their service 25 P-63s had been lost on ops or in accidents, 20 were SOC as war weary and 40 still in good condition were earmarked for shipment to Africa.
Sources
Bell P-39 Airacobra
Robert F Dorr Jerry C Scutts
Crowood Aviation Series
ISBN:1 86126 348 1
Pages 134 - 144
not typed verbatim
Last edited:
Marshall_Stack
Senior Airman
Does anyone know how well the external supercharger of the P-63 performed? All I know is that it has a variable speed hydraulic coupling. Being an engineer, it sounds interesting....
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Sorry fella
my source reveals nothing on supercharger specifics, I could dig around and see what else I've got
- Thread starter
- #38
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
I can also find very little about the P-63 Allison. I believe it is similar to the P-82 Mustang, so maybe we can dig up some info in that manner. One article I found alluded to the P-82 having the same engine, but I'm not sure of the accuracey of that information. Also the way it described the engine, there was no intregal first stage blower, it was all on this "external" two stage supercharger. Thats all I have been able to find. I have to get off my cheap butt and buy some books on the Airacobra / Kingcobra.
drgondog
Major
The P-82 E night fighter version had the 1710-143/145 Allisons which were basically the same as the 1650-9 (P-51H) engine with a Bendix speed density carb used for fuel monitoring.. damn good engine...doubt that it was the P-63 which I think was the -121
