dazzagreenwood
Recruit
Hey thanx Wurger. Muchly appreciated!
He 177 Specifications?
- Thread starter bryce
- Start date
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Use of He-177 on th eastern front 1944:
KG1 (new) was formed in early june 1944 at Königsberg/eastern prussia and subsequently commssioned with 3 Gruppen (estimate strength: 100 He-177A5).
Despite several strategical targets were in range, they barely were active due to severe fuel shortage. Training flights were mostly disbanded. Usually fuel was delivered the day before a major attack was planned.
From eastern Prussia they flew several attacks against soviet supply depots and transport centres in late summer 1944. Usual attack altitude was 6000m (~20.000ft) and formation was close in order to get most of the defensive potential. Few attampts to intercept were made and those cases usually ended with fighter beeing frustrated by He-177 formation defense (they copied the US combat box). Losses are credited to AAA more than fighter causes and remained on a very low level (below 5%).
One of the major attacks was flown under supervision of Kommodore Horst v. Riesen and targeted the railway centre Velikiye Luki (approx. 300 Km west of Moscow) with 87 He-177.
At june, 23th, a soviet major assault targeted for Army group centre and eventually destroyed the bulk of the german forces. The success of soviet tanks forced all german planes to be involved in anti tank purposes. V. Riesen was ordered to attack soviet tanks along the frontline (personal order from Göring) in low level flying. As You may know, sending such a huge airplane, as the He-177 was, in low level anti tank duties isn´t a wise idea and thus those sorties ended with a loss ratio of nearly 25%, mostly by fighters, which found the low and slow He-177 an easy target, altough they prooved to receive a huge amount of battledamage (some planes are reported to return to bases with several 3.7cm hits in the fuselage and wings). It is not known if any soviet tank was destroyed.
At jule, 20th, KG 1 again flew succesful high level attacks on various targets.
This also was the last major operational sortie of KG 1 as fuel shortage did not allowed to keep KG 1 operational. KG 1 was ordered to move to central Germany and the unit was disbanded shortly afterwards. This directly may be credited to the high grade fuel shortage.
KG1 (new) was formed in early june 1944 at Königsberg/eastern prussia and subsequently commssioned with 3 Gruppen (estimate strength: 100 He-177A5).
Despite several strategical targets were in range, they barely were active due to severe fuel shortage. Training flights were mostly disbanded. Usually fuel was delivered the day before a major attack was planned.
From eastern Prussia they flew several attacks against soviet supply depots and transport centres in late summer 1944. Usual attack altitude was 6000m (~20.000ft) and formation was close in order to get most of the defensive potential. Few attampts to intercept were made and those cases usually ended with fighter beeing frustrated by He-177 formation defense (they copied the US combat box). Losses are credited to AAA more than fighter causes and remained on a very low level (below 5%).
One of the major attacks was flown under supervision of Kommodore Horst v. Riesen and targeted the railway centre Velikiye Luki (approx. 300 Km west of Moscow) with 87 He-177.
At june, 23th, a soviet major assault targeted for Army group centre and eventually destroyed the bulk of the german forces. The success of soviet tanks forced all german planes to be involved in anti tank purposes. V. Riesen was ordered to attack soviet tanks along the frontline (personal order from Göring) in low level flying. As You may know, sending such a huge airplane, as the He-177 was, in low level anti tank duties isn´t a wise idea and thus those sorties ended with a loss ratio of nearly 25%, mostly by fighters, which found the low and slow He-177 an easy target, altough they prooved to receive a huge amount of battledamage (some planes are reported to return to bases with several 3.7cm hits in the fuselage and wings). It is not known if any soviet tank was destroyed.
At jule, 20th, KG 1 again flew succesful high level attacks on various targets.
This also was the last major operational sortie of KG 1 as fuel shortage did not allowed to keep KG 1 operational. KG 1 was ordered to move to central Germany and the unit was disbanded shortly afterwards. This directly may be credited to the high grade fuel shortage.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Compare:
J. Dressel/M. Griehl, Heinkel He 177 - 277 - 274. Eine luftfahrtgeschichtliche Dokumentation, 2. Aufl. (1989). Griehl earlier published the performance datas in his article "Gesch. der dt. Bomberflotte".
I agree that economic cruise speed is the more relevant figure for bombers. So far, I have no such datas at hand.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Maybe this can help?
Chief of General Staff General Walther Wever declared a strategic vision in 1934 & wanted an aircraft capable of reaching the Urals, with 1,000kg (2,204 lb) of bombs to fly 5,000km (3,107 mi) at a speed not less than 500 km/h (311 mph) at altitude. This was the Ural bomber specification and the He-177 was developed to meet that requirement.
In fact over shorter distances it could carry greater bomb loads.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Please can anyone advise me the fuel capacity of the He-177 A-5 please, either in Litres/US Gals or in weight?
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
The real problem was oil pumps causing oil foaming in the DB606 engines. This engine issue was eventually solved and then with the A-3 version in November 1942 the fuselage was lengthened 1.6m solving aerodynamic issues. A-O & A-1 airframes became surplus in 1943 and from late 1943 were used for rebuild conversion at Vienna Schwechat to the He277.
From December 1943 the A-5 used the same lengthened fuselage of the A-3 with a new DB610 engine. By 1944 with Steinbock raids over England the He-177 had the lowest casualty rate of all Luftwaffe bombers. By 1944 however the He-177 lacked the combination of speed & altitude performance required for true strategic bombing.
The He277 was intended to regain the initiative with the capability of bombing from 49,210ft altitudes, but in April 1944 all production was halted.
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 288
- Jul 4, 2005
I will resurrect this topic to avoid opening a new one. I have been reading on the He 177 development and my impression is that there are many grey areas. Perhaps other members can share their opinions, or contribute with new references.
I am reading the book by Griehl and Dressel, which contains appendices on the specifications and modifications of different prototypes. However, there is no clear explanation on why the empty weight goes from 13.72 ton in prototype V1 to 18.74 on V15.
Now, you could claim that the weight went up because the He 177 was required to perform dive bombing, but the He 177 A-5/R-2 empty weight is 16.8 tons, similar to other WW2 4 engine bombers:
- B-17G: 16.3
- B-24J: 16.5
- Stailing I: 22.4
- Halifx III: 17.1
- Lancaster I: 16.7
- Pe 8: 18.5
- P.108: 17.3
Extra armour and armament could add weight, but do no explain a 35% increase in empty weight.
Heinkel He 177 prototypes listed in the graph.
V1 (CB+RP/Wk-Nr 00 0001):
Flight characteristics and performance tests; evaluation of Fowler flaps. Severely damaged as result of crash-landing (3 October 1941).
V2 (CB+RQ/Wk-Nr 00 0002):
Stability tests and evaluation of new horizontal tailplane. Destroyed in crash 27 June 1940.
V3 (D-AGIG/Wk-Nr 00 0003):
Stability tests and evaluation of new horizontal tailplane. Destroyed in crash 24 April 1940 due to tailplane failure.
V4 (Wk-Nr 00 0004):
Performance and inclined flight tests; evaluation of brake flaps. Destroyed in crash 8 June 1941.
V5 (PM+OD/Wk-Nr 00 0005):
Performance and inclined flight tests; tailplane experiments. To Heinkel works 23 June 1943.
V6 (BC+BP/Wk-Nr 00 0006):
First armament pattern aircraft. Assigned to KG 40 as training aircraft 23 June 1943.
V7 (SF+TB/Wk-Nr 00 0007):
Second armament pattern aircraft. Assigned to KG 40 as training aircraft 23 June 1943.
V8 (SF+TC/Wk-Nr 00 0008):
Evaluation of flaps, radiators, shortened Fowler flaps, powerplants. At Heinkel works 26 June 1943.
V9 (GA+QQ/Wk-Nr 00 0023):
A-08 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Evaluation of four separate engines, twin fin/rudder assembly and K-12 automatic flight control system. Handed over to E-Stelle Rechlin 15 August 1944.
V14 (GI+BM/Wk-Nr 15152):
A-1 experimental aircraft for Kehl III equipment. Final whereabouts unknown.
V15 (Wk-Nr 355001):
A-3 fitted with new cockpit and used for inclined flight trials with brake parachute. Crashed 24 June 1944.
V19 (VF+QA/Wk-Nr 332101):
A-3 used for DB 610 powerplant tests. Destroyed as result of engine fire 13 November 1943.
I am reading the book by Griehl and Dressel, which contains appendices on the specifications and modifications of different prototypes. However, there is no clear explanation on why the empty weight goes from 13.72 ton in prototype V1 to 18.74 on V15.
Now, you could claim that the weight went up because the He 177 was required to perform dive bombing, but the He 177 A-5/R-2 empty weight is 16.8 tons, similar to other WW2 4 engine bombers:
- B-17G: 16.3
- B-24J: 16.5
- Stailing I: 22.4
- Halifx III: 17.1
- Lancaster I: 16.7
- Pe 8: 18.5
- P.108: 17.3
Extra armour and armament could add weight, but do no explain a 35% increase in empty weight.
Heinkel He 177 prototypes listed in the graph.
V1 (CB+RP/Wk-Nr 00 0001):
Flight characteristics and performance tests; evaluation of Fowler flaps. Severely damaged as result of crash-landing (3 October 1941).
V2 (CB+RQ/Wk-Nr 00 0002):
Stability tests and evaluation of new horizontal tailplane. Destroyed in crash 27 June 1940.
V3 (D-AGIG/Wk-Nr 00 0003):
Stability tests and evaluation of new horizontal tailplane. Destroyed in crash 24 April 1940 due to tailplane failure.
V4 (Wk-Nr 00 0004):
Performance and inclined flight tests; evaluation of brake flaps. Destroyed in crash 8 June 1941.
V5 (PM+OD/Wk-Nr 00 0005):
Performance and inclined flight tests; tailplane experiments. To Heinkel works 23 June 1943.
V6 (BC+BP/Wk-Nr 00 0006):
First armament pattern aircraft. Assigned to KG 40 as training aircraft 23 June 1943.
V7 (SF+TB/Wk-Nr 00 0007):
Second armament pattern aircraft. Assigned to KG 40 as training aircraft 23 June 1943.
V8 (SF+TC/Wk-Nr 00 0008):
Evaluation of flaps, radiators, shortened Fowler flaps, powerplants. At Heinkel works 26 June 1943.
V9 (GA+QQ/Wk-Nr 00 0023):
A-08 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Evaluation of four separate engines, twin fin/rudder assembly and K-12 automatic flight control system. Handed over to E-Stelle Rechlin 15 August 1944.
V14 (GI+BM/Wk-Nr 15152):
A-1 experimental aircraft for Kehl III equipment. Final whereabouts unknown.
V15 (Wk-Nr 355001):
A-3 fitted with new cockpit and used for inclined flight trials with brake parachute. Crashed 24 June 1944.
V19 (VF+QA/Wk-Nr 332101):
A-3 used for DB 610 powerplant tests. Destroyed as result of engine fire 13 November 1943.
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 288
- Jul 4, 2005
I have had a look at the files on this aircraft in the British archives (AIR 40 166 and 167). According to a British analysis the total weight of the armour is 1,915 lb, 70% being external. This is pointed out as Ju 188, Do 217 and Ju 88 carry ~400 pounds.
I could not find any comment on the structure being sturdier due to dive bombing capability.
Fuel carried in different configurations, from He 177 A5 manual:
- Short range configuration: 8,800 liters
- Medium range configuration: 10,730 liters
- Long range configuration: 12,680 liters
I could not find any comment on the structure being sturdier due to dive bombing capability.
Fuel carried in different configurations, from He 177 A5 manual:
- Short range configuration: 8,800 liters
- Medium range configuration: 10,730 liters
- Long range configuration: 12,680 liters
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 288
- Jul 4, 2005
This message was posted by Zipper 730 in another discussion, and is worth sharing here:
While it was posted in another thread, it seems as if it should be here, as it discusses load-factors in German Aircraft designs: The He 177's maximum g-load was listed as 4.0g in Manfred
Griehl & Joachim Dressel's Heinkel He 177/277/274, on aircraft with strengthened wings (A-3/A-5?). Assuming that's not the ultimate-rated load-factor: That would produce an ultimate load-factor of 7.2g, with a safety factor of 1.8 (as was custom for the Germans). If correct, that would correlate to a normal-rated load-factor in US/UK terms of 4.8g, and this would apply (far as I know) at a weight of 27000 kg (59525 lbs).
This would produce a remarkably rugged airframe compared to most all the heavy bombers used by the UK & USA: The ultimate load-factors, as listed for the Lancaster & Halifax were 4.5g ultimate (3g normal-rated); the B-17C was 4.2g (2.8); the Shorts Stirling & B-24D were 4.0g (2.67g) at listed design weights that were pretty much the gross weight. With the He 177A-3 & A-5 weighing in at 31000-34000 kg (63433-74957 lbs) at MTOW, this would result in an estimated load factor of 5.72-6.27g.
Other than the Mosquito and Beaufort, there weren't many bombers that could pull higher g-loads than this design.
In an attempt to find data on the Ju 88, I've been reduced to trying to find data from video games -- something I'm extremely reluctant to do (DCS World and BMS might be exceptions because of the dedication to detail), but IL2's the only data-source I got and, while I've heard different figures regarding accuracy: It might be a start, if for no other reason than it could get a discussion going, and (provided I don't get decapitated by the moderators) such discussions often lead to a variety of links and sources, that provide factual data (and that's my goal).
That said, I do have deep skepticism of an ultimate load-factor of 8g: That said, the Mosquito could pull similar loads (that said, not every light/medium could do that), and it was used as a heavy fighter (though, it was said to take significant losses to Beaufighters).
ww2aircraft.net
While it was posted in another thread, it seems as if it should be here, as it discusses load-factors in German Aircraft designs: The He 177's maximum g-load was listed as 4.0g in Manfred
Griehl & Joachim Dressel's Heinkel He 177/277/274, on aircraft with strengthened wings (A-3/A-5?). Assuming that's not the ultimate-rated load-factor: That would produce an ultimate load-factor of 7.2g, with a safety factor of 1.8 (as was custom for the Germans). If correct, that would correlate to a normal-rated load-factor in US/UK terms of 4.8g, and this would apply (far as I know) at a weight of 27000 kg (59525 lbs).
This would produce a remarkably rugged airframe compared to most all the heavy bombers used by the UK & USA: The ultimate load-factors, as listed for the Lancaster & Halifax were 4.5g ultimate (3g normal-rated); the B-17C was 4.2g (2.8); the Shorts Stirling & B-24D were 4.0g (2.67g) at listed design weights that were pretty much the gross weight. With the He 177A-3 & A-5 weighing in at 31000-34000 kg (63433-74957 lbs) at MTOW, this would result in an estimated load factor of 5.72-6.27g.
Other than the Mosquito and Beaufort, there weren't many bombers that could pull higher g-loads than this design.
In an attempt to find data on the Ju 88, I've been reduced to trying to find data from video games -- something I'm extremely reluctant to do (DCS World and BMS might be exceptions because of the dedication to detail), but IL2's the only data-source I got and, while I've heard different figures regarding accuracy: It might be a start, if for no other reason than it could get a discussion going, and (provided I don't get decapitated by the moderators) such discussions often lead to a variety of links and sources, that provide factual data (and that's my goal).
That said, I do have deep skepticism of an ultimate load-factor of 8g: That said, the Mosquito could pull similar loads (that said, not every light/medium could do that), and it was used as a heavy fighter (though, it was said to take significant losses to Beaufighters).
Load Factors for German Aircraft
Does anybody have the maximum rated g-load figures for German aircraft designs, particularly combat aircraft. This would include fighter and bombers, as well as scouts and maritime patrol aircraft. For the purposes of simplicity, bombers will include both level and dive-bomber designs...
ww2aircraft.net
