how much damage can a ME 262 take compared to a piston driven fighter

snelson · May 22, 2014

sometime my brain get stuck on something and just eats at me

i've been playing a Microsoft combat flight simulator 3 battle for Europe. well when the game started i had to fly P 47 which flew quite nicely at 25,000 feet but as they lost altitude it turn over to the 109's 190's . it also seemed to me that for the most part you had to hit this planes quit a bit to get a good kill

well now it's late 1945 and i'm flying a P 38L. and having a lot of luck. well to the question i'm flying against a lot of ME 262's and for some reason the 262 are slowing down and getting into a turning fight with me, and as you can guess i'm getting a lot of good hits but just a few seem to blow this plane out of the air. a couple of hits to the jet engine and thats all she wrote. while pretty sure the game isn't the most accurate one out there but it did raise the thoughtjust how tough were they compared to other fighters of WW2

thanks steven

stona · May 22, 2014

The engines on the Me 262 were considered vulnerable by the German's themselves.

Cheers

Steve

airminded88 · May 22, 2014

regardless of their impressive speed and deadly armament, once one of them got on the receiving end of six, eight or four .50 cal mg and a 20mm cannon and got an accurate burst, they would have gone down as any other single or twin engine aircraft would.

stona · May 22, 2014

Vulnerability is the inability to sustain damage and still function. Even a cursory look at a Jumo 004 will indicate precisely this. Some engines, particularly radials, could sustain significant damage and still function. Not so the early jets.
It was very difficult to score any hits in air to air combat. The fewer required to destroy the target the better for the attacker, and the worse for the victim.
Cheers
Steve

FLYBOYJ · May 22, 2014

Steven, I'm not a fan of those flight sims in comparing to actual aircraft, they're fun and can provide a basic insight if programmed correctly, but they are not real. I could rant and rave about this but that's for another thread.

With that said, I feel airframe wise the -262 would be just as strong as any other piston engine fighter of the period. As stated, the turbine engine is the weak link. If a 262 took just a few rounds in an engine, many nasty things start happening almost immediately, where in a recip it may take some time before the engine "grenades," this even including in-line engines.

Clayton Magnet · May 22, 2014

Check out il2: battle of stalingrad if you are looking for more realism, but as stated previously, thats a discussion for another thread

Shortround6 · May 22, 2014

FLYBOYJ said:
With that said, I feel airframe wise the -262 would be just as strong as any other piston engine fighter of the period. As stated, the turbine engine is the weak link. If a 262 took just a few rounds in an engine, many nasty things start happening almost immediately, where in a recip it may take some time before the engine "grenades," this even including in-line engines.

As a second to what FlyboyJ has posted the reciprocating engines didn't really have enough going on inside the engine to cause catastrophic damage to the air-frame even if the engine did "grenade". Although an out of balance engine might wrench itself from it's engine mounts.

A jet engine, while a small target does contain a number of elements:

the compressor and turbine disks turning at high rpm, which if they fail due to combat damage, can wreak havoc on their surroundings.
Around 40 years ago I worked at P&W in the dept that conducting the "spin test" on the compressor and turbine disks made in that factory. The disks were assembled with "test" blades/weights and lowered into pits lines with lead blocks below floor level with a steel cover plate over an inch thick and spun up to proof rpm levels by small steam turbines. Depending on contract sometimes EVERY disk in an engine (or replacement part) had to under go that test. I don't recall one failing while I was there but there were certainly scars in the lead blocks from older failures.
Some drag cars have been almost cut in half by flywheel failures:

Or tractors;

Farmall 1206 Tractor Break In Half

Watch the video;

A disk turning 9000 rpm has 9 times the energy of one turning at 3000 rpm.

FLYBOYJ · May 22, 2014

Clayton Magnet said:
Check out il2: battle of stalingrad if you are looking for more realism, but as stated previously, thats a discussion for another thread

I guess better graphics. If you flew the sim after a two hour work out then put on a wet flight suit, cranked the heat in the room up to 100F and had a 300 pound woman sit on you when you pull Gs, that could provide some more realism as well.

GrauGeist · May 22, 2014

The Me262 was also known to burn furiously if it's fuel tanks were hit, the tanks being located ahead of the cockpit and behind the cockpit. (some airframes were found to have a smaller, additional tank behind the aft tank)

Capt. Vick · May 22, 2014

Didn't Big Daddy lose a foot to one of those dragster engines exploding?

Donivanp · May 22, 2014

The airframe it's self looks to be pretty rugged, but a jet is just that. If you grow foreign objects in them, they don't work so well. And the fact it was a first gen axel flow jet it could not take much. No sudden changes in throttle could be done. Most were shot down landing or taking off, and it could not get into a turning fight with most fighters. But look at the P-51. Hit the radiator and you just lost an airplane. Most plane have a weak spot, ( well save the P-47), and if you find it, they are toast.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 22, 2014

FLYBOYJ said:
I guess better graphics. If you flew the sim after a two hour work out then put on a wet flight suit, cranked the heat in the room up to 100F and had a 300 pound woman sit on you when you pull Gs, that could provide some more realism as well.

Well said...

Shortround6 · May 22, 2014

Capt. Vick said:
Didn't Big Daddy lose a foot to one of those dragster engines exploding?

Could be. A lot of racing classes wound up requiring a steel "ring" around the flywheel/clutch assembly

And the danger from exploding clutches and rear ends motivated the change to putting the driver in front of the engine.

Later engines got a bit more rugged but please remember that some US aircraft had steel plates between parts of the turbo/s and crew positions in case the trubo over revved or failed. (18-24,000 rpm stores a lot of energy)

davebender · May 22, 2014

Me-262 didn't enter combat in strength until April 1945. By then most fighter aircraft fired explosive cannon shells. Place a few 20mm shells into Me-262 wing and it will have same result as similar hits on any other fighter aircraft type.

pbehn · May 22, 2014

I liked the part about the 300Ib woman sitting on me......wot where when?

gumbyk · May 22, 2014

davebender said:
Me-262 didn't enter combat in strength until April 1945. By then most fighter aircraft fired explosive cannon shells. Place a few 20mm shells into Me-262 wing and it will have same result as similar hits on any other fighter aircraft type.

Which means it won't make any difference to a comparison of vulnerability.

Axial flow turbines (even modern ones) are particularly vulnerable to FOD.

pbehn · May 22, 2014

pbehn said:
I liked the part about the 300Ib woman sitting on me......wot where when?

Flyboy theres a lot of 300Lb women here you just opened a can of worms

Garyt · May 22, 2014

Me-262 didn't enter combat in strength until April 1945. By then most fighter aircraft fired explosive cannon shells. Place a few 20mm shells into Me-262 wing and it will have same result as similar hits on any other fighter aircraft type.

Do you mean "most fighter aircraft other than United States fighters"?

pbehn · May 22, 2014

Garyt said:
Do you mean "most fighter aircraft other than United States fighters"?

Makes no difference. A piston engined aircraft's engine has many vulnerable areas but a Me 262 turbine is a complete vulnerable area. Anything going into the turbine would wreck it

GrauGeist · May 22, 2014

davebender said:
Me-262 didn't enter combat in strength until April 1945. By then most fighter aircraft fired explosive cannon shells. Place a few 20mm shells into Me-262 wing and it will have same result as similar hits on any other fighter aircraft type.

The Allies had been shooting Me262s down since August of 44, didn't matter if it was 20mm, .50 cal or .303...

how much damage can a ME 262 take compared to a piston driven fighter

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