"Carboncrank, posted:The Mustang's smaller air frame, narrow nose and laminar flow and low drag far outweighed having less HP.
Laminar Flow was never accomplished on the Pony.
Why wouldn't you google before posting the question?
I'm wondering why you haven't used google.
The mustang was faster but it wasn't just about raw top speed because the jug would only fly it's top speed at very high altitude and both it and the corsair climbed like a school bus compared to the mustang. The Mustang had usable speed at every altitude. The mustang would fly an astounding 388 miles per hour at sea lever, 50 mph faster than a Jug. The jug's fastest speeds were at 38 to 40 thousand feet. That's not where dogfights happen. Loaded bomber didn't cruise or bomb anywhere near that high, more like 20 to 25 thousand feet so there is no practical advantage to the jug's 40 thousand foot speed.
The Jug's top speed was approx. 32,000 ft on the D's 435 mph, M's - 473 mph (granted only 100 made), N's - 457 mph. As you can see it's not at 38-40,000 ft. Alt. is energy, energy is what you need to effectively fight in any aircraft; whether from high power, sleek design or Altitude. Better yet is to have all three in one aircraft.
dogfights happened at the bomber altitude on down. That's where the huge difference in lower altitude speed of the mustang was a huge advantage. If a jug ends up with a German on his tail at 25 thousand feet and he can't out-turn him or out fly him but he can shove the stick forward and get a gap in a dive. He better get a big one though because if it's an FW190 that sticks close enough the FW will reel in the Jug. The mustang will motor away. Reverse the situation at mid to low altitude and make the mustang the pursuer he's going to close the gap on anything in the sky. Think about a 50 mph advantage on the deck. Say the mustang is chase from a mile behind. He's gaining about 50 or 60 feet per second. Or flipped around from low to mid altitude, where most fur balls end up the mustang will run away from anything he can't out turn.
At 25,000 ft the FW 190 is struggling. The Jug will out turn it at 250 mph and out run it level speed at that alt. Even at 10,000 ft as long as the Jug's speed is over 250 it can out turn the 190; at least that's what the flight test against each other says.
The Mustang was a jack of all trades. It did all things good, but the only one excellent was range. That is what made the Mustang a very good for the job that was required of it.
you very obviously didn't look at the source material a gave. Show me where you get you "facts" otherwise it's just opinion. And I figured you go for numbers on models made in small numbers late in the war that are totally irrelevant.
The fact I errored in the top speed altitude of the Thunderbolt doesn't negate the point. The Mustang and the Jug are about same speed at that altitude, but still, dog fighting doesn't happen at that altitude. The lower you go the more glaring the speed difference between the 2 planes. So if at any point from see level up to 25k if you find yourself in a position where you need to accelerate away you are better of in a Mustang. With the exception of diving from high altitude, anything the Jug could do in air to air a Mustang could do better. Jugs became train killers while the Mustangs dominated the Luftwaffe.
I wasn't comparing the Jug to an FW190, I was comparing it to a Mustang proving the Mustang was a better air plane in every aspect of dog-fighting.
The mustang was obviously the best fighter of the war in all regards. It showed up in theater way later than the jugs and shot down a low-side estimate of 4,950 aircraft at a loss of 2500 while the jug shot down 3,662 and lost 3500. The only P47 squadrons that didn't replaced by the mustangs were the ones kept for short range ground attack missions, which it was very good at.
The air war was decided in the spring of 44. "Big Week" operations with their massive deep penetration raids drew large numbers of German planes up to fight where they lost veteran combat pilots they could not replace. Through Feb and March the Jugs still far outnumbered the mustangs in raw numbers of planes in the big missions yet the mustangs the kill per sortie numbers for the Mustangs was multiples of the Jug, possibly because the Mustangs flew far into Germany where the Germans put up their best efforts to stop the bombers. Air superiority was achieved in about 8 weeks with near domination by June 44 or there would have been no D-day. Keep in mind also that the "Big Week" Mustangs were B models.
We went from a near halt of Missions into Germany in October 43 for lack of long range support (the inadequacy of the P*47) to domination by June 44. Simply put, no P-51, no "big week". No "Big week" no June D-Day invasion,
And don't sound like the range problem wasn't a major flaw. After the disastrous long range missions to Schweinfurt–Regensburg August 17, 1943 and second Schweinfurt October 14th the 8th severely scaled back the bombing for 5 months because of the inadequacies of the P-47, waiting for enough P-51s to replace them.
Here is a daily from Dec 1st 1943 91st bombgroup 322nd squadron mission to bomb the chemical works of I. G. FarbenIndustrie A/C.(Bayer), Leverkusen, Germany. That's just 40 miles into Germany. They put 8 bombers up.
------------
Time: Take Off 0755. Target 1202. Return 1434.
Bomb Load 8 x 500 G.P, 20 x 100 I.lB.'s
Bombing Altitude 26,000
Results: Unobserved 9/10 cloud
Fighter Opposition: 40-50 E/A mostly FW190's and Me-109's with a few
Me-100's and FW-189's. FW-190's were painted to look like out P-47's.
Rocket firing E/A were in evidence. Between 1140 and 1200 hours our
fighter support did not cover our formation. It was during this
period of time that our group suffered its losses (5 A/C M.I.A.) also
4 A/C landing elsewhere in England .
Remarks: The following A/C failed to return: A/C 794 piloted by Lt.
L. J. Anderson, A/C 511 piloted by Lt. J. T. Wennenberg, A/C 836
piloted by Lt. Charles L. Early. Major H. W. Weitzenfeld, C.O. of
the 401st, was group leader.
--------------
Notice the missed hand off between P-47 squadrons. 5 of the 8 bombers were shot down in that 20 minute screw up.
Aircraft #511 was "Wheel n' Deal". The bombardier was 2nd Lt John W Temple, the husband of my mother's older sister. He spent 18 months in various POW camps.
40 miles into Germany, 160 miles from the coast, 240 miles from England and yet the Jugs had to fly in relays to cover even that, and the result was a missed relay, 5 B-17's shot down, 50 men killed or captured. My uncle's plane was hit by FW190's before the bomb run. It also had an 88 round go up through the plane right behind the pilots a out the top without exploding. The Jugs finally arrived but only covered a few minutes before they had to go home because of the range problem. The force had no fighter escort for the bomb run but "Wheel n' Deal's" didn't make to the run because it was hit again in an engine in a FW190 pass, became a straggler and a sitting duck. Still they didn't go down and they found cloud cover but as soon as they came out of the cloud the 88's were all over them one round leaving a whole in a wing "big enough to drop a cow through". They bailed out, the pilot left it on auto pilot when he left an she flew on another 10 miles or more before belly landing, still on auto pilot, on the Rhine river. The German's fished it out but my uncle had destroyed the bombsite. 9 of the ten survived.
This kind of story repeats itself over and over again until the arrival of the Mustang.
So don't try to make the P-47 into something it was not, Read the 91st dailies, see the losses.
The story of "Wheel N Deal", including it's final fight, is told here. If you don't want to read the whole page do a page search on "Wheel N Deal". BTW that page tells the story of "Memphis Belle" too as it was 91st bombgoup, 324th squadron.
Chapter 4 - One Came Home. The Stories of Those Left Behind
"Carboncrank, posted:The Mustang's smaller air frame, narrow nose and laminar flow and low drag far outweighed having less HP.
Laminar Flow was never accomplished on the Pony.
Why wouldn't you google before posting the question?
I'm wondering why you haven't used google.
The mustang was faster but it wasn't just about raw top speed because the jug would only fly it's top speed at very high altitude and both it and the corsair climbed like a school bus compared to the mustang. The Mustang had usable speed at every altitude. The mustang would fly an astounding 388 miles per hour at sea lever, 50 mph faster than a Jug. The jug's fastest speeds were at 38 to 40 thousand feet. That's not where dogfights happen. Loaded bomber didn't cruise or bomb anywhere near that high, more like 20 to 25 thousand feet so there is no practical advantage to the jug's 40 thousand foot speed.
The Jug's top speed was approx. 32,000 ft on the D's 435 mph, M's - 473 mph (granted only 100 made), N's - 457 mph. As you can see it's not at 38-40,000 ft. Alt. is energy, energy is what you need to effectively fight in any aircraft; whether from high power, sleek design or Altitude. Better yet is to have all three in one aircraft.
dogfights happened at the bomber altitude on down. That's where the huge difference in lower altitude speed of the mustang was a huge advantage. If a jug ends up with a German on his tail at 25 thousand feet and he can't out-turn him or out fly him but he can shove the stick forward and get a gap in a dive. He better get a big one though because if it's an FW190 that sticks close enough the FW will reel in the Jug. The mustang will motor away. Reverse the situation at mid to low altitude and make the mustang the pursuer he's going to close the gap on anything in the sky. Think about a 50 mph advantage on the deck. Say the mustang is chase from a mile behind. He's gaining about 50 or 60 feet per second. Or flipped around from low to mid altitude, where most fur balls end up the mustang will run away from anything he can't out turn.
At 25,000 ft the FW 190 is struggling. The Jug will out turn it at 250 mph and out run it level speed at that alt. Even at 10,000 ft as long as the Jug's speed is over 250 it can out turn the 190; at least that's what the flight test against each other says.
The Mustang was a jack of all trades. It did all things good, but the only one excellent was range. That is what made the Mustang a very good for the job that was required of it.
Oh and forgot to mention. The 109 had one of the least aerodynamically clean airframes of that time period for fighter aircraft. Of the different marks the F model was as clean as it would get; although the G-10 and K models were close.
"Carboncrank, posted:The Mustang's smaller air frame, narrow nose and laminar flow and low drag far outweighed having less HP.
Laminar Flow was never accomplished on the Pony.
Why wouldn't you google before posting the question?
I'm wondering why you haven't used google.
The mustang was faster but it wasn't just about raw top speed because the jug would only fly it's top speed at very high altitude and both it and the corsair climbed like a school bus compared to the mustang. The Mustang had usable speed at every altitude. The mustang would fly an astounding 388 miles per hour at sea lever, 50 mph faster than a Jug. The jug's fastest speeds were at 38 to 40 thousand feet. That's not where dogfights happen. Loaded bomber didn't cruise or bomb anywhere near that high, more like 20 to 25 thousand feet so there is no practical advantage to the jug's 40 thousand foot speed.
The Jug's top speed was approx. 32,000 ft on the D's 435 mph, M's - 473 mph (granted only 100 made), N's - 457 mph. As you can see it's not at 38-40,000 ft. Alt. is energy, energy is what you need to effectively fight in any aircraft; whether from high power, sleek design or Altitude. Better yet is to have all three in one aircraft.
dogfights happened at the bomber altitude on down. That's where the huge difference in lower altitude speed of the mustang was a huge advantage. If a jug ends up with a German on his tail at 25 thousand feet and he can't out-turn him or out fly him but he can shove the stick forward and get a gap in a dive. He better get a big one though because if it's an FW190 that sticks close enough the FW will reel in the Jug. The mustang will motor away. Reverse the situation at mid to low altitude and make the mustang the pursuer he's going to close the gap on anything in the sky. Think about a 50 mph advantage on the deck. Say the mustang is chase from a mile behind. He's gaining about 50 or 60 feet per second. Or flipped around from low to mid altitude, where most fur balls end up the mustang will run away from anything he can't out turn.
At 25,000 ft the FW 190 is struggling. The Jug will out turn it at 250 mph and out run it level speed at that alt. Even at 10,000 ft as long as the Jug's speed is over 250 it can out turn the 190; at least that's what the flight test against each other says.
The Mustang was a jack of all trades. It did all things good, but the only one excellent was range. That is what made the Mustang a very good for the job that was required of it.
you very obviously didn't look at the source material a gave. Show me where you get you "facts" otherwise it's just opinion. And I figured you go for numbers on models made in small numbers late in the war that are totally irrelevant.
The fact I errored in the top speed altitude of the Thunderbolt doesn't negate the point. The Mustang and the Jug are about same speed at that altitude, but still, dog fighting doesn't happen at that altitude. The lower you go the more glaring the speed difference between the 2 planes. So if at any point from see level up to 25k if you find yourself in a position where you need to accelerate away you are better of in a Mustang. With the exception of diving from high altitude, anything the Jug could do in air to air a Mustang could do better. Jugs became train killers while the Mustangs dominated the Luftwaffe.
I wasn't comparing the Jug to an FW190, I was comparing it to a Mustang proving the Mustang was a better air plane in every aspect of dog-fighting.
The mustang was obviously the best fighter of the war in all regards. It showed up in theater way later than the jugs and shot down a low-side estimate of 4,950 aircraft at a loss of 2500 while the jug shot down 3,662 and lost 3500. The only P47 squadrons that didn't replaced by the mustangs were the ones kept for short range ground attack missions, which it was very good at.
The air war was decided in the spring of 44. "Big Week" operations with their massive deep penetration raids drew large numbers of German planes up to fight where they lost veteran combat pilots they could not replace. Through Feb and March the Jugs still far outnumbered the mustangs in raw numbers of planes in the big missions yet the mustangs the kill per sortie numbers for the Mustangs was multiples of the Jug, possibly because the Mustangs flew far into Germany where the Germans put up their best efforts to stop the bombers. Air superiority was achieved in about 8 weeks with near domination by June 44 or there would have been no D-day. Keep in mind also that the "Big Week" Mustangs were B models.
We went from a near halt of Missions into Germany in October 43 for lack of long range support (the inadequacy of the P*47) to domination by June 44. Simply put, no P-51, no "big week". No "Big week" no June D-Day invasion,
And don't sound like the range problem wasn't a major flaw. After the disastrous long range missions to Schweinfurt–Regensburg August 17, 1943 and second Schweinfurt October 14th the 8th severely scaled back the bombing for 5 months because of the inadequacies of the P-47, waiting for enough P-51s to replace them.
Here is a daily from Dec 1st 1943 91st bombgroup 322nd squadron mission to bomb the chemical works of I. G. FarbenIndustrie A/C.(Bayer), Leverkusen, Germany. That's just 40 miles into Germany. They put 8 bombers up.
------------
Time: Take Off 0755. Target 1202. Return 1434.
Bomb Load 8 x 500 G.P, 20 x 100 I.lB.'s
Bombing Altitude 26,000
Results: Unobserved 9/10 cloud
Fighter Opposition: 40-50 E/A mostly FW190's and Me-109's with a few
Me-100's and FW-189's. FW-190's were painted to look like out P-47's.
Rocket firing E/A were in evidence. Between 1140 and 1200 hours our
fighter support did not cover our formation. It was during this
period of time that our group suffered its losses (5 A/C M.I.A.) also
4 A/C landing elsewhere in England .
Remarks: The following A/C failed to return: A/C 794 piloted by Lt.
L. J. Anderson, A/C 511 piloted by Lt. J. T. Wennenberg, A/C 836
piloted by Lt. Charles L. Early. Major H. W. Weitzenfeld, C.O. of
the 401st, was group leader.
--------------
Notice the missed hand off between P-47 squadrons. 5 of the 8 bombers were shot down in that 20 minute screw up.
Aircraft #511 was "Wheel n' Deal". The bombardier was 2nd Lt John W Temple, the husband of my mother's older sister. He spent 18 months in various POW camps.
40 miles into Germany, 160 miles from the coast, 240 miles from England and yet the Jugs had to fly in relays to cover even that, and the result was a missed relay, 5 B-17's shot down, 50 men killed or captured. My uncle's plane was hit by FW190's before the bomb run. It also had an 88 round go up through the plane right behind the pilots a out the top without exploding. The Jugs finally arrived but only covered a few minutes before they had to go home because of the range problem. The force had no fighter escort for the bomb run but "Wheel n' Deal's" didn't make to the run because it was hit again in an engine in a FW190 pass, became a straggler and a sitting duck. Still they didn't go down and they found cloud cover but as soon as they came out of the cloud the 88's were all over them one round leaving a whole in a wing "big enough to drop a cow through". They bailed out, the pilot left it on auto pilot when he left an she flew on another 10 miles or more before belly landing, still on auto pilot, on the Rhine river. The German's fished it out but my uncle had destroyed the bombsite. 9 of the ten survived.
This kind of story repeats itself over and over again until the arrival of the Mustang.
So don't try to make the P-47 into something it was not, Read the 91st dailies, see the losses.
The story of "Wheel N Deal", including it's final fight, is told here. If you don't want to read the whole page do a page search on "Wheel N Deal". BTW that page tells the story of "Memphis Belle" too as it was 91st bombgoup, 324th squadron.
Chapter 4 - One Came Home. The Stories of Those Left Behind