ID of fuel system parts, DB-601 ????

[Larrythepilot]

The Freeman Army Airfield Museum is back with another part ID request. We came upon, and cleaned up, these fuel system parts. Since many of our loose, unidentified parts turn out to be from the Daimler-Benz model 601 engine (used in the German Bf-109 fighter), we think these parts might be from that engine as well. The picture with the bar in between is the way we think the parts belong, although we didn't find them joined like that. The lever on the top of the right item makes it look like a diaphragm pump. The other picture shows the reverse side of the parts. It looks like there is a place for 2 sediment bowls to connect to the "pump" part. ..... Thanks for your help.

 

[Snautzer01]

E Engineman calling mr Eng....

 

[Engineman]

E Engineman calling mr Eng....

Hello?

Eng

 

[Engineman]

Hi Larry,

Unfortunately these are not a Bf 109 E/F/G/K part, where the fire shut-off cocks are two single large sediment bowl filter cocks with linked x-shaft function, the DB 601 version listed as the DBU part, FBH 16A Bl. 4187 in the Bf 109 E ersatzteilliste. There are later variations but all these E to K types have single large bowl with single fuel IN and OUT on each unit.
The parts you show may well have linked in a similar way on the valve operating shaft but, they are quite different. I am afraid that I cannot comment on the possible application of your parts in the pics, they should have ID labels and numbers but they may not be there any more.

Please feel free to put up more parts for ID.

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Hello Engineman,
I just examined the parts again, in good light, and with a magnifying glass. Their are numbers stamped into some of the light-gold-colored fittings. The fittings have numbers such as the letter K over the digits 238, with a circle around them. Another such number on a fitting is K over 415. I imagine that these are simply stock fitting numbers.

On the mounting plate portion of the piece that has what I called a diaphragm pump, their is a stamped B, with what looks like a crescent moon around it. I imagine that the stamp did not come down square, and the "crescent moon" is really about half of a circle, and there are missing numbers or letters under the B. There are no other markings.

I understand that none of the above information is very much help. I guess I will not learn where these parts were used. Thank you for your prompt reply, and for trying to help me.

Larry

 

[Engineman]

Hello Engineman,
I just examined the parts again, in good light, and with a magnifying glass. Their are numbers stamped into some of the light-gold-colored fittings. The fittings have numbers such as the letter K over the digits 238, with a circle around them. Another such number on a fitting is K over 415. I imagine that these are simply stock fitting numbers.

On the mounting plate portion of the piece that has what I called a diaphragm pump, their is a stamped B, with what looks like a crescent moon around it. I imagine that the stamp did not come down square, and the "crescent moon" is really about half of a circle, and there are missing numbers or letters under the B. There are no other markings.

I understand that none of the above information is very much help. I guess I will not learn where these parts were used. Thank you for your prompt reply, and for trying to help me.

Larry

Hi Larry,
The "light gold" coloured fittings are yellow anodised alloy, very common on German fuel, oil, air and hydraulic (low-ish pressure) systems. The numbers that you describe are possibly QA stamps, and some could be size markings, but very difficult to tell without pics. Some of your material is hard to ID, even with a lot of knowledge, so do not be shy about asking because you might get good info back! Although both of your parts here have the same square section operating drives, I think that they are possibly not related. I believe that the left part is an air supply valve, commonly used to switch low pressure air to the external fuel droptank to transfer fuel into the main tank. This was fitted to Bf 109's with this system which includes Bf 109 F to K. That valve is fitted inside the LHS of the cowling, in a position just below the Hydraulic U/C selector valve. Similar valves were fitted to other types, and I cannot confirm the exact one that you have there.
The pump/filter/shut-off cock on the RHS is similar to other versions but, yours has two sediment bowls. Yes, it does have a manual diaphragm pump function to raise fuel pressure by hand operation of a lever. This is just one of a family of these but, the two bowl arrangement is specific and it is not for a Bf 109 E-K.
Cheers

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

Hi Larry,
The "light gold" coloured fittings are yellow anodised alloy, very common on German fuel, oil, air and hydraulic (low-ish pressure) systems. The numbers that you describe are possibly QA stamps, and some could be size markings, but very difficult to tell without pics. Some of your material is hard to ID, even with a lot of knowledge, so do not be shy about asking because you might get good info back! Although both of your parts here have the same square section operating drives, I think that they are possibly not related. I believe that the left part is an air supply valve, commonly used to switch low pressure air to the external fuel droptank to transfer fuel into the main tank. This was fitted to Bf 109's with this system which includes Bf 109 F to K. That valve is fitted inside the LHS of the cowling, in a position just below the Hydraulic U/C selector valve. Similar valves were fitted to other types, and I cannot confirm the exact one that you have there.
The pump/filter/shut-off cock on the RHS is similar to other versions but, yours has two sediment bowls. Yes, it does have a manual diaphragm pump function to raise fuel pressure by hand operation of a lever. This is just one of a family of these but, the two bowl arrangement is specific and it is not for a Bf 109 E-K.
Cheers

Eng

OK Eng, thank you for the additional information. At least now I have some idea what we have, and what the parts do, even if it is uncertain what aircraft the parts were used on. I understand that some parts were used across many different aircraft. Since we had maybe 30 different enemy airplanes here right after WWII, and many were disassembled for study, and the parts were later buried, we don't know, and in many instances will never know, exactly which airplanes they came from.

Larry

 

[Tony Kambic]

Maybe Engineman can help here. This is on a DB605 engine. Slightly similiar.

Tony

 

[Engineman]

Maybe Engineman can help here. This is on a DB605 engine. Slightly similiar.

Tony

Hi Tony, Thanks for posting the pic of the 8-4573A air valve. As you can see, your pic item looks to be fitted to a 109 F or later model with provision for a drop tank. It is positioned just below the U/C hydraulic selector valve at the rear left side of the engine compartment. Your pic is the correct way-up, and we can see the pipe connection on the forward face of the valve, and the straight-down connections on the bottom. In contrast, Larry's example, if rotated to the fitted position in a 109, has the connection on what is the rear face, and it has two banjo type fittings on the bottom connections. In addition, Larry's valve has a different style of the simple square drive shaft to that usually seen on a 109 fitted air valve.
So, although I do think that Larry's valve is likely an 8-4573 air valve of the type fitted to the Bf 109, it is not dressed as I would expect for that application, and the exact id remains unknown. Of course, it is probably an 8-4573 and I suspect it may be from another German aircraft with air pressure operated drop tank(s).
Cheers

Eng

 

[Tony Kambic]

Hi Tony, Thanks for posting the pic of the 8-4573A air valve. As you can see, your pic item looks to be fitted to a 109 F or later model with provision for a drop tank. It is positioned just below the U/C hydraulic selector valve at the rear left side of the engine compartment. Your pic is the correct way-up, and we can see the pipe connection on the forward face of the valve, and the straight-down connections on the bottom. In contrast, Larry's example, if rotated to the fitted position in a 109, has the connection on what is the rear face, and it has two banjo type fittings on the bottom connections. In addition, Larry's valve has a different style of the simple square drive shaft to that usually seen on a 109 fitted air valve.
So, although I do think that Larry's valve is likely an 8-4573 air valve of the type fitted to the Bf 109, it is not dressed as I would expect for that application, and the exact id remains unknown. Of course, it is probably an 8-4573 and I suspect it may be from another German aircraft with air pressure operated drop tank(s).
Cheers

Eng

I have a few other images I'll post for you. A couple other fittings from the 605, and since we don't have a 601 on display yet, I took some of the Japanese 601. I'll post in a day or two.

Tony

 

[Tony Kambic]

Here are two other devices. One from the DB605 on a Bf109G, on the firewall near the previous one I posted above. And another image of a device on a Aichi Atsuta V-12 (copied from a DB601).

 

[Engineman]

Hi Tony,
Yes, no problem with these. The "Bf109G device" is the undercarriage hydraulic selector valve. The main (larger) part has the slide valves, operated by the push buttons in the cockpit. The top part, that bolts on by the integral banjo, is a higher pressure relief valve that is effective only during undercarriage raising or lowering. When the U/C is locked up or down and the selector pushbuttons pop back out, the hydraulic circuit then bypasses that higher pressure valve and goes back to low pressure operation of the cooling flaps and the oil cooler control flap.
The green painted part on the Atsuta is the engine oil filter. This has an internal cleaning action that is performed manually by hand operating the lever and ratchet seen in the centre RHS of the pic. This is a complicated area of the engine, at the rear-underneath the wheelcase. Just above the green painted filterhousing is the engine oil inlet with a black plastic screwcap, behind and above that are parts of the engine control levers. Also, just forward, but mostly hidden, is the engine coolant pump.
Hope that is useful. Happy to comment on any other pics.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

Here are two other devices. One from the DB605 on a Bf109G, on the firewall near the previous one I posted above. And another image of a device on a Aichi Atsuta V-12 (copied from a DB601).

Hi,
Just for interest, there are Bf 109 G "specialist" level questions about the pic of the U/C selector, if anyone is wanting to play? So, in the first picture, what is the loose wire laying horizontally across the valve, half-way up the picture for?

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

I am back to the 2 valves I asked about back in November. I am about to build a small display stand so we can put these valves out for museum visitors to observe and enjoy. I will make the stand out of wood. The parts will have to be cut out, drilled for attachments, trial assembly, disassembled, sanded, varnished 2 coats (with curing and sanding in between), and then final assembly. An explanatory exhibit sign has to be created. All those steps will take about a week. All I have right now are the 2 valves, and some pieces of wood. It is going to be bitterly cold here next week, so I will stay home and work in the shop in my garage, which is fortunately heated. I will post photos when the display is completed. Special thanks to Engineman, who provided a lot of information about how these types of valves were used.

 

[Engineman]

That sounds good Larry. The 8-4573 Air valve is straightforward, almost 109 G but possibly another type. The filter/shut-off cock with two filterbowls, I still don't have a better idea.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

I thought that those of you (especially Engineman) who helped me with the identification and description of these valves, might like to see how the display came out. It's not overly complicated or exciting. I got to build another display in my shop, which I love to do, and use the information you provided. Thank you all for your help.

 

[Engineman]

Very nice Larry,
Those parts are so much better captioned and displayed like that.
Do I see an 004B in the background?
Cheers

Eng

 

[Wurger]

 

[gillescollaveri]

Fascinating exchange.
I personally would love visiting Freeman museum.
best regards to all of you.
Gilles