Prop ID

[Malechite138]

I've got a prop that myself and another museum member are in disagreement over. He believes it is from a late 109, and I believe it is from something else.
I'm not sure what (I will have to check the logs to see what other aircraft came through our airfield to verify it) but it doesn't have the atypical screw in ends of a 109.
So I thought I'd post some pics and see if anyone else could shed some light on the issue or give us some input. Thanks in advance for any help/info.

 

[Engineman]

Hi,
It is a WW2 German VDM blade. I will come back after making dinner to reply.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

Hi,
It is a Bf 109 F3 or F4 blade, sitting next to a Fw 190 U/C leg.

Eng

 

[Malechite138]

Thank you sir. Joe was saying it was a later 109. We can still see where this 109 prop had a yellow stripe. But since it was a little longer than our other 109 props, it had me raising an eyebrow. It is about 57" end to end, and about 7" at its widest part on the base. And the 190 U/C leg just happened to be next to it (working on both). I've got a hub for the 190 as well that still needs cleaned up. But I'm just finishing the Hs 129 up (hub and 1 prop...looking for 2 more props to go with it). I'm probably going to do the 109 hub next because we have 3 blades to go with it. So that will be a nice large display once I get into it. I'll leave you with a couple pics of that Ratier hub now that it is basically done. Just need to mount a display for it on the wall somewhere. You guys said it was likely from a M.S. 406 or a D.520, but we never had any of those at our airfield. So I had to dig into our book and see what it could have been. And we figured out that Ratier was from a Henschel Hs 129. Shame I don't have both hubs, since it was a twin engine plane; but it will still make a nice museum display. The 2 spots where there isn't paint is where the part numbers were stamped on the prop, and I didn't want to paint over those (in the one pic). Cheers.

 

[Wurger]

None of the Bf 109 series fighters had any yellow strips on the prop blades. Unless it was a Swiss one. But in the case it should be of the double white IIRC. All prop blades were of the black-green paint overall or could stay unpainted for the pre-war kites.
Judging by the number seen partially above the Werk Nummer it could be the VDM 9-12087A prop blade used for the Bf 109F-4 for the engine DB 601E. The lenght of the prop blade seems to be correct for the VDM prop. The propeller was of 3 m ( 9 ft 10 in/(9 ft 8.5 in ) diameter. However the prop blade looks like the narrower one for the VDM 9-12010A prop. At least, in the pics above.

 

[Malechite138]

Roger that. I'll see if I can't get a picture of the stripe on Tuesday then. See if that can give us a better idea. Since Freeman field was part of operation LUSTY (Operation LUSTY - Wikipedia), we tend to have some oddball ones. I didn't even notice the stripe (Joe did). But I'll see if I can't get a closer look or better picture on Tuesday while I'm there of the stripe he says is there.

 

[Engineman]

Thank you sir. Joe was saying it was a later 109. We can still see where this 109 prop had a yellow stripe. But since it was a little longer than our other 109 props, it had me raising an eyebrow. It is about 57" end to end, and about 7" at its widest part on the base. And the 190 U/C leg just happened to be next to it (working on both). I've got a hub for the 190 as well that still needs cleaned up. But I'm just finishing the Hs 129 up (hub and 1 prop...looking for 2 more props to go with it). I'm probably going to do the 109 hub next because we have 3 blades to go with it. So that will be a nice large display once I get into it. I'll leave you with a couple pics of that Ratier hub now that it is basically done. Just need to mount a display for it on the wall somewhere. You guys said it was likely from a M.S. 406 or a D.520, but we never had any of those at our airfield. So I had to dig into our book and see what it could have been. And we figured out that Ratier was from a Henschel Hs 129. Shame I don't have both hubs, since it was a twin engine plane; but it will still make a nice museum display. The 2 spots where there isn't paint is where the part numbers were stamped on the prop, and I didn't want to paint over those (in the one pic). Cheers.

Hi,
This is quite a tricky blade to identify, with only partial information, but there was enough for me to do it, using original information.
The blade number on the base looks as if it would possibly reveal more details (numbers) with careful work, but that is a skilled trick, and it is possible to destroy the marks with incorrect cleaning methods. Also, there is no detail about the Hub? The hub should reveal it's ID numbers. The steel hub had a light-alloy data plate riveted on to the front outer face of the hub centre. This is likely to be missing. However, the hub has the data also stamped onto the same front area, just behind the front propshaft opening. These stampings usually survive, unless the corrosion has removed considerable metal. Searching these numbers would be the best data, if any are still readable! Sometimes, knowing where they are is important.

So, what have we got? Not a lot! Photo's with no measurements to start with, but the puzzle does fit a solution.
The marks visible on the blade base are: a 715 Inspectors stamp, a Ps in a circle makers stamp, W.Nr 12.957 and above that, 1200?
The 1200? will be preceded by a 9, giving 9-1200?
The photo's show an early/mid war blade shape, not wide chord or paddle. The VDM blade root fitting/bearing (Flugel-lagerung) has locking screw holes in the outer lock-ring (Konusmutter).
Referring to the VDM manual, the only production blade that matches the 9-1200? is the 9-12004.10/.11 blade fitted with the 9-1177.41 Flugel-lagerung with the screw holes. This blade was only fitted to the Bf 109 F3/F4 with DB 601 E engine. The complete prop assembly was the 9-12010A with the 9-12010.31 Hub.
The hub data plate and stamped numbers would be, Gerate 9-12010A and 9-12010.31.

The extra info is useful. 57" end to end is 145cm, correct for the 3m dia of the 9-12010A propeller assy. As said, the blades would have been Dark Green, any other stripes or yellow tips would have been added after capture. The Hub would probably have been red primer and Dark green painted. The blade root fitting/bearing would have been bare metal/plated.

It would be very interesting to see the hub and any numbers/plate? Also, happy to help with similar on the "Fw 190" blades and hub.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

None of the Bf 109 series fighters had any yellow strips on the prop blades. Unless it was a Swiss one. But in the case it should be of the double white IIRC. All prop blades were of the black-green paint overall or could stay unpainted for the pre-war kites.
Judging by the number seen partially above the Werk Nummer it could be the VDM 9-12087A prop blade used for the Bf 109F-4 for the engine DB 601E. The lenght of the prop blade seems to be correct for the VDM prop. The propeller was of 3 m ( 9 ft 10 in/(9 ft 8.5 in ) diameter. However the prop blade looks like the narrower one for the VDM 9-12010A prop. At least, in the pics above.

Agree. The 9-12087A prop assy could be fitted to some Bf 109 F3/F4 but, listed as "only with rear cooler armour fitted" in the VDM docs.

Eng

 

[Malechite138]

We do have a 109 hub; but I believe the one we have is an earlier 109. We have several of the earlier 109 blades (hence why I think this late model 109 blade kind of threw me...but I guess Joe had it correct all along). I haven't started cleaning that hub, or the 190 hub we have up yet. But I'll post some pics of it once I get started on it. I wanted to get the HS 129 hub/prop done before I moved on basically. We've been working on a new stand on casters for a heavy piece the last 2 weeks, so I just kind of finished up the 129 stuff up on the side (now I just have to wall mount it). I'd like to get the 190 U/C leg done next just because it is out already and started (as seen in the pics, about 1/3 done with the wire brushes...so a long ways to go...any idea what color it might have been? Also looked grey, but I'm not wondering at this point if that is just what is left of the primer?). Most of the stuff we have that still flew at the end of the war was sent to other air bases. The rest of the parts got buried in various places around the airport. So occasionally we have digs and find things. Those things have been in the ground for 70 years give or take. Props, Hubs, parts. So for obvious reasons where we run across part numbers or stamps, everything has to be done by hand to preserve what can still be seen/read. I'm of the same opinion; I think the stripe was added after capture. But knowing what colors to paint the 109 hub and props (and 190 hub/props) is certainly a bonus.

 

[Engineman]

The German wartime prop blades for the operational aircraft were generally the Dark Green. This is a smooth but not gloss, and almost looks Black. Paint finishes are laid-down in RLM manuals and the details are available, although I do not specialise in paint myself.
Pleasure to help, details are specific but can be tricky. Well done for trying to get accurate! Contact me anytime.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

We do have a 109 hub; but I believe the one we have is an earlier 109. We have several of the earlier 109 blades (hence why I think this late model 109 blade kind of threw me...but I guess Joe had it correct all along). I haven't started cleaning that hub, or the 190 hub we have up yet. But I'll post some pics of it once I get started on it.

Well, the 9-12010A Prop is really early WW2, in Service by 1941.

Eng