Identification of Spitfire part

[MiTasol]

Good day all.

This photo is of a Spitfire Mk V rudder identification tag

My questions are:

1. Does the serial indicate what aircraft this rudder was built for, and
2. What RAF serial was that aircraft, and
3. What factory was it built at (what factory used the TH0 inspection stamps)

Thanks

 

[ThomasP]

Hey MiTasol,

The only plant involved in building Spitfires with those initials (that I can think of) is the one that was located in Trowbridge on Hilperton Rd. They built tail surfaces for the Spitfire Mk V and later marks there, along with other parts and assemblies. However, I do not know if their inspectors used the THO stamp.

 

[MiTasol]

Thanks. MAYBE the TH comes from Trowbridge Hilperton and maybe the O is a Q so THQuality. Hopefully others will be able to confirm this or come up with the correct interpretation.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey MiTasol,

Is there any information as to where this part was found, ie Australia, England, PTO, MTO, etc?

 

[MiTasol]

Hi Tom
Australia

 

[ThomasP]

Hey MiTasol,

Is there any chance this part could be from a Mk VIII in stead of a Mk V?

One reason I ask is that the Mk V tail was used on some Mk VIII airframes (also some Mk IX and maybe other Marks) including on some HF Mk VIIIs. I know that Australia received HF Mk VIIIs but I do not know if any of them had the Mk V tail.

The other reason I ask is that although I have not been able to find any record of a Spitfire with the S/N WA191(being a Lancaster) or W4191(being a Vampire), I did find a Mk VIII with the S/N MV191 - maybe what looks like a WA is an upside down MV? This is just a WAG on my part but who knows? I have seen more bizarre things in my career. It could be that the person making the plate misread the letters due to being tired, high on paint fumes, drunk, or maybe he read the letters correctly and thought it would be clever to stamp them upside down due to the destination of the airframe. Or maybe there was no M stamp available and the worker was told to use an upside W but the instructions got messed up between being told and doing it. Or maybe the office worker who typed up the list screwed up for any of the same reasons. I have seen similar mistakes/occurrences.

Like I said above, just a WAG.

 

[MiTasol]

Hi Tom

It is definitely a Mk Vc and many of the inspection stamps are WA which indicates a Westland built aircraft. Westland built both Spit and Seafires. This rudder is probably from Westlands AR212-AR621 contract.

My suspicion is this is the 191st assembly accepted by Westland from TH, or from all rudder subcontractors, but I still have no idea who TH is.

I have a (very poor) undated drawing showing the subcontractors for components on Vickers-Armstrongs built aircraft but that shows their rudders appear to have come from Pobjoy. There is no subcontractor that I can see that could possibly use TH on their stamps.

I can see no way of reconciling TH with Pobjoy and the only organisation I can think of with TH in their name is BTH (British Thompson-Houston) and I can find no Thompson-Houston company in the UK (the original Thompson-Houston was a US company)

 

[MiTasol]

Hi Tom

From airhistory.org.uk

 

[ThomasP]

So the WA is probably for Westland Aircraft then. I was not aware that Westland used WA for its manufacturer code, only for its inspection stamps.
I should have thought of that though. Makes sense.

Perhaps it was cannibalized from another airframe and used as a spare? I do not know how the manufacturers marked their spares for the RAF/RAAF.

Edit: Sorry, did I misunderstand that the WA in the above stamp was a manufacturer's ID?

 

[MiTasol]

Hi Tom

Yes - the WA indicates Westland Aircraft.

Manufacturers inspection stamps are specific to each company and each facility so Castle Bromwich aircraft have VACB, Westland have WA. I do not know what the Supermarine and Cunliffe Owen stamps were (yet). Vickers first plant would have VA and the other Vickers plants would have VA* or VA** stamps.

Where one company has several factories each has its own stamps - eg VACB and for Curtiss in Buffalo NY there are two stamps CWB for the original factory at the airport and CWK for the second Kenmore plant which was only a couple of miles away.

 

[ThomasP]

This is what I have relative to the Spitfire:

Inspection Stamps related to the Spitfire:

6.S or 6S over xx in circle for Vickers Armstrong Supermarine Works, Southampton
GAL 6S over xx in oval(?) for General Aircraft Ltd (indicated contracted production for Supermarine Division)
CBAF over xx in circle for Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory
VACB over xx in circle for Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory
VACH over xx in circle for Vickers Aircraft, Chester
VABL over xx in circle for Vickers Aircraft, Blackpool
WA over xx in circle for Westland
COA over xx in circle for Cunliffe Owen Aircraft, Southampton

WBxx in circle for Westland, Brough???? or Winchester, Broadlands????

Manufacturer's marks related to the Spitfire:

ALD for Aldermaston Aerodrome (final assembly)
AST for Air Service Training, Hamble (Spit Mk V to Seafire Mk IB conversion)
COA for Cunliffe Owen Aircraft, Southampton (Spit Mk V to Seafire Mk IB conversion)
CHA for Chattis Hill Aerodrome (final assembly)
EA for Supermarine, Eastleigh Airport (final assembly)
FL for Folland, Hamble
HEA for Henley Aerodrome (final assembly)
HPA for High Post Aerodrome (final assembly)
KEA for Keevil Aerodrome, Trowbridge (final assembly of Spit Mk V, Mk VIII, etc)
PP or PPSM for Phillips & Powis, South Marston (Vickers owned from 1 April 1943, produced Spit Mk 21)
R-R or R-RH for Rolls Royce, Hucknall (Mk V to Mk IX conversion)
6.S or 6S for Vickers Armstrong Supermarine Works, Southampton
YE for Westland, Yeovil Aerodrome (Spit & Seafire production, final assembly, and repair)

??? for Heston Aircraft Co, Heston Aerodrome, Middlesex (repair of Spit and modification to PR types)

VAHPk for Vickers Armstrong, Hursley Park (I do not know if they actually manufactured parts here or not)

W.B.Ltd/CBAF for Westland, Brough???? (indicated contracted production for CBAF)

WIN for Winchester???? (do not know what was done here) or Swindon, South Marston????? (modification work, Seafire and Spit Mk 21 production)

And now WA for Westland. Do you know if the WA was used as a general stamp or for a specific site/complex?

Pobjoy Airmotors and Aircraft Ltd. was purchased by Short Brothers in 1938, maybe they used a different stamp acronym after that?

 

[MiTasol]

Thanks Tom
That really helps as it covers many I did not know.
Given the large number of "lost" dispersed component factories for the Spitfire we may never know the grand total but much more is becoming known at present with several new docos on Spit production announced. Maybe in one of those I may find more info.
Your W.B.Ltd/CBAF stamp supports my suspicion that the stamp I am researching indicates TH for WA.
Do you know what the Pobjoy stamp was/were predating the Shorts takeover?

 

[MiTasol]

Hi Tom
I just received this list of known Westland subcontractors, but no inspection stamp details unfortunately. Moffat Garage made sub-assemblies but I consider it highly unlikely that they used TH0 ot THO as a stamp

• Sparrows Agricultural Engineers, Martock, Machine shop
• Yeo Brothers Paul, Martock, Machine shop
• No. 3 Site, Martock Machine shop
• Castleton Caravans, Sherborne, Detail manufacture and sub-assembly
• Odeon Cinema, Yeovil, Detail manufacture
• Preston Stores, for storage of perishable materials
• Southern National Bus Company, Yeovil, Detail manufacture
• Nautilus Works, Yeovil, Sheetmetal stores
• Moffat Garage, Yeovil, Sub-assembly manufacture

 

[MiTasol]

Hey MiTasol,

The only plant involved in building Spitfires with those initials (that I can think of) is the one that was located in Trowbridge on Hilperton Rd. They built tail surfaces for the Spitfire Mk V and later marks there, along with other parts and assemblies. However, I do not know if their inspectors used the THO stamp.

What company was this? That may provide other clues

 

[ThomasP]

Hey MiTasol,

The Trowbridge manufacturing complex was part of the Supermarine shadow factory scheme. There were (I think) 5 plants in Trowbridge, one each on Bradley Road, Fore Street, Church Street, Southwick, and Hilperton Road - with the plant on Hilperton Road (new build?) coming later. At first the complex built parts that were shipped to other locations for use (possibly the Salisbury complex, maybe anywhere, I have not been able to find any details). Eventually the Bradley Road plant was greatly expanded so that complete Spitfires could be built, with final assembly at Keevil Aerodrome (KEA).

"Revisiting town's Spitfire past"

 

[MiTasol]

Many thanks
I will watch the video tonight
EDIT - that should have been read the paper

 

[ThomasP]

Edited my post#11 above to include Winchester as a possible(probable?) plant for the designator WIN and/or WB.

 

[MiTasol]

Thanks

 

[ThomasP]

Hey MiTasol,

The British Thomson-Houston (BTH) main site(?) was located in Rugby, Warwickshire. I can find no reference to BTH making Spitfire parts or any other aircraft parts in WWII (other than the Whittle engine) unless it was for electrical equipment (magnetos, generators, distributors, etc), but it was owned/controlled by a company called Associated Electrical Industries (AEI) from 1929, which also owned/controlled Metropolitan-Vickers.

A good write-up on the company on Wiki "British Thomson-Houston - Wikipedia"

 

[MiTasol]

Thanks Tom
I have worked on their electrical equipment (various dH engine magnetos mainly) but did not know of their connections to AEI, MetroVic and the Whittle project.