In World War II, how would a two seat P-51D or H or the F-82 have done as a night/all weather fighter?

[BarnOwlLover]

Well, pretty much as the thread title says, but some details. At least one (and probably only one) P-51D was converted into a two seat night fighter (photo at IWM here, and a similar non-night fighter conversion):

UNITED STATES EIGHTH AIR FORCE IN BRITAIN, 1942-1945

A two seat P-51 Mustang (VF-S, serial number 44-72210) of the 336th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Group."P.51D Mustang, coded VF-S, right-sided view, with cockpit double-split open.

www.iwm.org.uk

UNITED STATES EIGHTH AIR FORCE IN BRITAIN, 1942-1945

A two seat P-51 Mustang of the 355th Fighter Group used to train weather scouts.Handwritten caption on reverse: 'This print has missed the censorship. 17c Dux plom 14103204. 2-seater Mustang used for training of weather scouts (bomber pilot volunteers).'

www.iwm.org.uk

And on the other end, though built as a very long range fighter, most F-82s post war after SAC service were used as night/AW fighters in North America and the Korean War. However, let's fast forward the timeline (and keep the Merlin engines, too) and give some guesses on how the F-82 might have done in World War II as a night interceptor.

 

[PStickney]

There's no way you're going to make a 2-seat RADAR equipped night fighter out of a P-51. For one thing, the only place to put all that extra gear is behind the pilot, displacing the fuselage tank - and your RADAR Observer. It might have been possible to hang an AN/APS-6 or AN/APS-19 "Bomb" on one ot the wing racks, like the Navy did, but you still need electricity for it, and a place to put the radar scope and controls. Not much room in a Mustang fuselage for that.
Oh, and 4th Fighter Group was a Day Fighter unit. Those antennae look more like a Radio Compass setup.

The F-82 would have been great, once they got it all working. The initial prototypes and early production models (The 20 P-82Bs, and the single C and D Night Fighter conversions) did have Packard Merlins - V1650-23/25s with ADI injection. The problem was, at the end of the War, the co-production agreement with Rolls expired, and there weren't going to be any more Merlins. Allison had the 2-stage (Integral main stage and hydraulically driven aux stage, with intercooler G series (V1710-143/145) They had great potential, but Allison had higher priority on the J33 and J35 jet engine projects, and getting the V1710Gs in shape was a long effort to sort out the highly stressed beast.
Of the Allison F-82s, (Designation change in the Air Force in mid-1948) the F-82Es were long range escorts, and the F-82F and G Models were dedicated Night Fighters. All came into service at about the same time, the -82Fs and Gs replacing F-61s, entering service in late 1948. When they worked, they did well - Japan based F-82s were the primary air-air fighters in the early days of the Korean War, when the NKPAF was cleared out in short order. (The F-80s in the day fighter squadrons didn't have the loiter time when operating from Japan) However, when the F-94s became available in 1950, they were dropped like hot potatoes. The E models flew with the 27th Fighter Escort Group in SAC, and were replaced by F-84s in 1950.
If there were P-82s available in 1945, they'd have been Merlin powered, and they'd have done well. But the first Twin Mustang didn't fly until July 1945. Since there weren't a whole lot of targets for it from late 1944 on...

 

[BarnOwlLover]

If the P-82 program was sped up/fast tracked to flying about a year-year in a half earlier, one, how well would it have done as a long range escort in the Pacific. and as a night fighter? How well would it have complemented the P-51D and the P-51H if it was fast tracked as well? And how useful would the P-82 have been in Europe, either as a bomber escort or night fighter?

 

[ThomasP]

re a 2-seat P-51 night fighter

I remember reading that there were some tests (near the end of the war in 1945, and post-war) where the night and/or all-weather interceptor carried only the receiving equipment. IIRC there was a P-51 involved in one case. A ground based radar station would supply the radar signal, acting as both the emitter and GCI. In effect the P-51 (or other aircraft) would act like a Semi-Active Radar Homing platform. The idea was to significantly increase the range at which the aircraft could detect the target - due to the relatively massive increase in broadcast strength of the ground radar.

I read about this a long time ago and do not remember if the source was authoritative or not.

 

[PStickney]

If the P-82 program was sped up/fast tracked to flying about a year-year in a half earlier, one, how well would it have done as a long range escort in the Pacific. and as a night fighter? How well would it have complemented the P-51D and the P-51H if it was fast tracked as well? And how useful would the P-82 have been in Europe, either as a bomber escort or night fighter?

I'd say that since that's what they were supposed to be used for, the answer to all of that is yes. I don't know how much it could have been fast tracked. One thing that would have helped is that they'd have stuck with the Merlin, since Packard's agreements with Rolls were still in force, and Continental's production line would be amped up.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

I'd also imagine that if the P-51D/H and F-82 were used as night fighters or interceptors, I'd bet that the USAAF might have either fast tracked the AN/M3 .50s or fixed the problems with US production of the Hispano Suiza HS404 cannon. Maybe take a page out of what the British were doing with theirs?

Also, as a recon plane (based on the RF-82 experiment at Elgin AFB post war), would the F-82 made for a good tactical or strategic recon platform?

 

[Howard Gibson]

Well, pretty much as the thread title says, but some details. At least one (and probably only one) P-51D was converted into a two seat night fighter (photo at IWM here, and a similar non-night fighter conversion):

What problem would this solve? A night fighter version of the P-38 looks like a better idea, but the radar operator's cockpit looks extremely uncomfortable. The USAAF and RAF needed long range daylight escort fighters. For nightfighting, the RAF had the excellent deHavilland Mosquitos, which had functional space for the crew, somewhere to put the radar, and heavy armament suitable for destroying bombers.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

In post 2 there's illustrations of the P-51D that was converted into a night fighter:

Allied Radar-Fighters 1938-1945-Air War in the Darkness-Volume Three

ALLIED RADAR-FIGHTERS 1938-1945 Air War in the Darkness Volume Three CONTENTS Bristol Blenheim Mk. IF Bristol Blenheim Mk. IVF Hawker Hurricane Mk. II (NF) Boulton Paul Defiant NF. Mk. II Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk. IF Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk. IIF Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

 

[PStickney]

In post 2 there's illustrations of the P-51D that was converted into a night fighter:

Allied Radar-Fighters 1938-1945-Air War in the Darkness-Volume Three

ALLIED RADAR-FIGHTERS 1938-1945 Air War in the Darkness Volume Three CONTENTS Bristol Blenheim Mk. IF Bristol Blenheim Mk. IVF Hawker Hurricane Mk. II (NF) Boulton Paul Defiant NF. Mk. II Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk. IF Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk. IIF Bristol Beaufighter NF. Mk...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

I'm just not convinced with that "P-51 Night Fighter" image - whatever it's doing, it's not carrying a radar. First - there's no room for a radar observer and the radar scopes and controls in that aft cockpit. In order to fit that aft cockpit, you've got to pull the existing radios and IFF - they were very big and bulky. There's no space for the radar Transmiiter/Receiver/Mixer electronics. The antennae aren't right for a 1941 era long wave AI. IV, let alone the 1944-45 microwave radars. To top it off, where's the electricity coming from? They need lots of watts.
If someone were building a single-seat night fighter in 1944-45, then the most logical thing to do is hang an APS-4, APS-6, or later, and APS-19 pod off a wing rack, and have the scope and radar control head in the cockpit. (As was done with the TBM, SB2C, F6F, F4U, and AD-1, on the Navy side.)
Perhaps we're looking at something intended for ferreting out German search or fire control radars - a Ferocious Ferret precursor to a Wild Weasel.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

This is me being purely objective, but I think a night fighter P-51 (any variant) or F-82 would look good in RAF night fighter colors, be it mid/late war sea grey/green or post war silver grey upper/black lower surfaces.

IMO, it's a bit strange that the RAF went to almost a day fighter color scheme for night fighters mid and late war.