Italian Carrier Aircraft

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The F5 is always a favorite of mine. The similarities of the three aircraft, but especially Gloster F.5 and Mitsubish A6M, are really uncanny.

Similar dimensions -
F5/34 had a 38' / 11.6 meter wingspan, with 230 sq ft (21 sq meter) wing area,
A6M2 had a 39' / 12 meter wingspan, with a 241 sq ft (22.4 sq meter) wing area

F5 was a little longer, at 32 feet vs 29 ft for A6M2. Very similar wing shape. A6M had a wider tail and rudder, and a longer canopy of course, whereas the F5 had a kind of partial turtledeck thing.

Anyone know what the range of the F5 was? If it had good range it might have been a nice alternative to a Fulmar (or an F2A) as a Naval fighter.
 
Gloster's F.5/34 was a good design, but under powered. It's nearly 320mph top speed was attained by the unarmed and unarmored prototypes.
Since it was designed around the Mercury, it would have needed rework to put a larger engine in it.

On the otherhand, the F.5's competitor, the Bristol Type 146 (shown below) was designed for the Perseus, but was tested with the Mercury due to the Perseus' unavailability, which gave it a bit lower performance than the F.5's results.

 
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It has a certain awkward elegance to it, and that is a very nice photo of it. It has the big wings which I like. And an 8 LMG armament hints that perhaps it could have had 20mm cannon. Still, it seems like being 30 mph slower on the same engine indicates a possible drag problem. Many early fighters (with retractable undercarriage) were able to make 300 mph on roughly the equivalent power (Macchi C.200 comes to mind).

But I gather you are saying that whereas Gloster F.5 would be stuck in roughly that lower range of engine power, the 146 could be upgraded to say, a 1,000 hp Taurus or something pretty quickly?
 

Great post, Tabby.
From 'Gloster Aircraft since 1917' by Derek N James, page 417.

Interesting info, which illustrates that Gloster was actually only a small company compared to the likes of Hawker and the numbers illustrate this, particularly when Hurricane and Typhoon production kicks in in anticipation of and during the war.
 
I don't know that much about British engines, but Perseus looks like about the same power as the Mercury. At least, on the Skua for example.
 
The Mercury engine used in the F.5 was the same as in the Gladiator - which was accepted into service and being produced while the two F.5s were passed over by the Ministry, by the way.
So I beleive it was the 825(?) hp Mercury IX (going by memory, so corrections welcome).
The 146 prototype was temporarily using the same Mercury engine. The intended Perseus was rated for 900 hp with comparable or slightly less weight.
 
Thank you, SR. I don't know if I feel dumb or not so dumb right now, but thanks.

No need to feel too bad, getting all-metal monoplanes to fold their wings wasn't easy and in the early years of modern carrier aircraft, a few manufacturers went the easy way and avoided doing so altogether. The first generation of all-metal aircraft had rather simple folding techniques, like the B5N or Devastator by folding the outer panels up, but Grumman bought a new sophistication to the art by pivoting the wing to sit vertically along the fuselage side. Fairey later did the same with the Firefly, but the Fulmar's wing swung backwards in its natural plain. Folding wings added weight and complexity and required a bit of extra thought from the engineering department.

Fulmar, note how a portion of the trailing edge pivots upwards to enable the panel to fold rearwards...

0307 FAA Museum Fulmar

The Firefly, like Grumman designs was a bit more complex.

DSC_0152
 

No, I just meant that all these years I'd assumed the Buff had folding wings, but never looked into it. I don't feel bad, I like to learn, but it's kinda a dumb thing to not actually look it up first before running my mouth!

The narrow elevators on most RN carriers would seem to put the kibosh on what was mostly a joke suggestion. I know there are fans of the Fulmar, but I'm not one of 'em. It's a shame the Brits built good, tough carriers, but flew mostly so-so a/c off 'em for much of the war.
 
I don't know that much about British engines, but Perseus looks like about the same power as the Mercury. At least, on the Skua for example.
They used the same bore and stroke and the same number of cylinders.
One must drink deeply of the sleeve valve cool-aid to believe the Perseus was going to make significantly more power than the Mercury.

The designers of the time might have been lured down the Taurus pathway but not only was it very, very dark, it lead to a sheer cliff.

The Taurus was 2% larger in displacement than the Mercury and Perseus (and several hundred pounds heavier) and depended on high rpm and the above mentioned cool aid to make power.
It had a lot of over heating problems and the vast majority of the service engines had FTH of 3000ft or 3500ft.
The Taurus XVI was rated at 1130hp at 3500ft at 3100rpm at 4.75lbs boost using 100/130 fuel.
One might estimate a bit over 800hp at 14,000ft from that and the only advantage the Taurus has is smaller diameter.
It never got a two speed supercharger.

The Japanese Zuisei engine was 1702 cu in (9.8% larger than the Taurus) the Japanese only used it to power the first two A6M prototypes before changing engines to the Sakae.
It was used in other aircraft.
The engine used in the Brewster Buffalo was 19.7% bigger in displacement than Mercury/Perseus.

The British simply have no path forward for a radial engine fighter in the late 30s no matter how well some of the prototypes performed.
 
I know there are fans of the Fulmar, but I'm not one of 'em.

I kinda like it, but it is rather big for a fighter, that's for sure. Those folding wings make putting it into a museum setting quite easy.

Fulmar nose

It was a bit like the Boulton Paul Defiant, the guys who proposed the original idea shouldn't have been making the decisions, but the designers came up with the best design to fit what wasn't the most thought out concept. In the Fulmar's defence, 1. it was an interim design that saw use beyond its original requirement against enemies it wasn't expected to counter (like the Defiant), 2. it was expected to range far out to sea, well beyond the ranges of any existing single-seat fighter in Europe at the time, to intercept reconnaissance and bomber aircraft, against which it was deemed to be more than a match. There was logic, but in hindsight was kinda flawed.
 
There was logic, but in hindsight was kinda flawed.

And yes, I'm applying the retrospectroscope in my judgement; it strikes me that one seat is better than two in any fighter, but then, the FAA really liked having planes land back actually aboard, which as USN and IJN both showed, didn't always happen with only one crewmember slated for both flying and nav.
 
I agree, The Fulmar gets a bad rap but at the time it was ordered the need for the 2nd seater and the required endurance/fuel load meant that no existing single seat fighter could meet the requirement.
As mentioned above it was supposed to be an interim aircraft to tide the RN over until the Griffon powered plane they really wanted showed up. Development of that aircraft was a speedy as wading though deep mud in cement shoes.
 
it strikes me that one seat is better than two in any fighter,

We've gotten so used to seeing Hellcats and Zeroes and Corsairs and how good they were, that any predecessor looks inadequate.

The decision-makers in the pre-war Fleet Air Arm, a branch of the RAF, not the navy were aiming for practicality as a means of cost-cutting. Put a lot of uses into one airframe to save cost, number and space on a carrier deck.
 
There is also the timing issue.

The Illustrious class, ordered in 1937 would not be ready until 1940/41.

The Courageous, Glorious and Furious had no real business operating close to enemy land based air. Even if equipped with a full complement of planes that would mean only 1 squadron or one reinforced squadron of fighters per flight deck and that is not enough to deal with a large scale land based attack. They had neither the AA suite (guns and fire control) or protection (armored deck) to make up for the small fighter component.

Single or even pairs of carriers are at extreme risk if operating within reach of land based air.

Larger groups of carriers and carriers with larger complements of aircraft (and with better AA or more AA escorts) would stand a better chance.

They never intended the Fulmar to stay is service as long as it did.
 

why not with some P&W R-1830s? Or Wright Cyclones?
 
Until late 1938 or early 1939 the British are not going to by foreign engines.
They did buy American engines in the Lockheed 14/Hudson.
The first Hudsons showed up with Wright GR-1820-G102A nine- cylinder radials, each rated at 1100 hp for takeoff and 900 hp at 6700 feet., single speed superchargers.
The First Hudson was being test flown on Dec 10th 1938.

Australia had ordered some Hudsons with Twin Wasps. The Version of the twin Wasp they got (with 87 octane fuel) gave 1050hp for take-off and 1000hp at 11,500ft in high gear of the two speed supercharger.

Mercury could give 840hp at 14,000ft. A lot less for take-off.

Designing, ordering and tooling up British factories in 1937-38 for fighters to use American engines that wouldn't exist until 1940-41 seems a bit of a stretch.
 
There is also the timing issue.

Exactly. Peacetime defence requirements are quite different to wartime ones, as odd as that might sound. The Fulmar was built to a specification issued by the Air Ministry, once the Admiralty regained control of the FAA the existing specifications that had been issued but not yet fulfilled were altered and reissued, but those that were already actioned, like the Fulmar had to be honoured. As an interim, the Fulmar was not just to see carrier service, but also as a catapult fighter, in which role it did also see action.

It's worth noting that the Fulmar was conceived as an interim to a two-seat turret fighter requirement, intended on being fulfilled by the Roc in the short term, but the requirement was reissued and then abolished altogether, with a single-seat fighter requirement being introduced instead once the navy gained control of the FAA. The partner specification to the turret fighter one was what produced the Firefly.
 

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