Ivanov fighter statistics

[spicmart]

Anybody know about this? It's the first Time I see this. Some interesting findings there.
Engineers Konstantin Ivanov and Vladimir Georgiev from a University of Sofia went to scientifically calculate performance stats of WW2 planes and compared it to those found in the works of William Green and Chris Chant.
Here I have a chart for the most important European important fighters:

Here is a site with more information about this work and lots more of aircraft stats.
It's only in German but maybe you can use some translator:

Flugleistungen der wichtigsten Flugzeuge - Luftkrieg über Europa 1939 - 1945: Die Angst im Nacken

 

[Shortround6]

I would view the "maximum climb rate (continuous accent)" with a large dose of skepticism.

The "continuous accent" description being the problem as many of those aircraft were rated at a 1/2 hour or one hour power rating for continuous accent and not a 15 minute or 5 minute rating (1 minute ratings being rather useless for climb)
I doubt very highly that the 109K was using a 1 hour rating to climb at 4980f/m.
climb to 6000 meters in just over 4 minutes anyone?

 

[GregP]

I'd bet P-51D pilots who could catch a Bf 109 at 20,000 feet would be very surprised to learn the Bf 109 actually faster than they were ...

Let's see, the DB 605 made about 1600 PS (1578 hp) on B4 fuel, with MW50 at 6000 m, and 1,160 PS continuous power. 1,850 PS at takeoff at 1.8 ata. If MW50 was not available with the B4 fuel, the boost was limited to 1.45 ata, and it made considerably less than 1578 hp. On C3 fuel, it could make 2000 PS at 1.98 ata when using MW50. There was not a lot of C3 near after summer 1944 (well, at the airfields, anyway ... especially the forward ones), and MW50 was a very short-duration thing. So, it was basically a 1600 PS engine for short duration.

So, the Bf 109K had about 3/4 of the power loading of the P-51D at sea level (in pounds per hp), yet we see Ivanov expects the Bf 109K to climb at 2.8 times the rate of the P-51D at 20,000 feet? Never mind that the BD 605 was a single-stage supercharger and the P-51D had a 2-stage supercharger. I have also never seen a P-51D that had a climb rate of only 2,441 feet per minute unless it was being cruise-climbed at reduced power. Last time I rode in one, we climbed at that rate on GREATLY reduced power, not max continuous or WEP. And we were turning significantly less than 3,000 rpm while doing so.

It may seem like I am trashing the DB 605. Not so. It was and IS a good engine, assuming short TBO is not an issue. But it wasn't going to last very long on MW50, and would be back to startingly normal power ratings in a short time. It would be useful to compare the expected performance numbers at military power only, not assuming absolute maximum power output that could not be maintained for long. When I quote P-51D performance numbers, it is not usually at WER power. A climb rate you can hold for only 5 minutes is not very representative of an aircraft's expected performance in combat.

I notice all the German planes are calculated by Ivanov at or above their often-quoted speeds, while all the Allied aircraft don't seem to fare as well versus the often-quoted numbers. Either we have great PR departments or our engineers are somehow a bit off in their numbers. Perhaps he is calculating the performance of P-51D aircraft in Soviet service using Soviet-supplied fuel and Soviet maintenance? That might explain some of the discrepancies. I can't tell from the post and have no knowledge of Ivanov's qualifications to calculated his grocery bill, much less aircraft performance numbers.

I'll go out on a limb and assume he knows a thing or two about it. But, if so, why are his numbers so much lower for Allied aircraft than our own performance tests show? It would be interesting to find out a few things about his assumptions and methodologies before additional comment.

 

[Schweik]

Curious Ta-152 is listed as one of the important aircraft types of the war seeing as how few were actually ever in combat....

 

[tomo pauk]

Anybody know about this? It's the first Time I see this. Some interesting findings there.
Engineers Konstantin Ivanov and Vladimir Georgiev from a University of Sofia went to scientifically calculate performance stats of WW2 planes and compared it to those found in the works of William Green and Chris Chant.
Here I have a chart for the most important European important fighters:

Some items of the table do raise eyebrows, like listing the 109K-4, 190D-9 and Ta-152 as from mid-1944 - nope, they were not in use that early. Then we have a thing where table is not composed by data found on primary sources, but from secondary sources. I've taken a look at tables from the linkes article, where the author puts P-51B&D dive speed at 750 km/h, and of the P-47D at 825 km/h. The Ta-152 going almost 490 mph, the 190A-8 (slowest of the Antons) going 660 km/h?? The renown 'turner', Spitfire, somehow can't out-turn the German opposition? We have a lot of data for Merlin Mustangs making 445 mph (test reports etc.), yet somehow they are much slower here.
Then - why choosing a specific altitude where the 109K-4 is supposed to excel and then compare other fighters with it?

So again, just putting the late 1944/early 1945 German fighters in the table that deals with mid-1944 fighters in service is IMO enough to disqualify it as something reliable.