January 1931: Regio Esercito you run the show

[Vincenzo]

Following the tomo pauk example as better prepared the italian army (Regio Esercito, royal army) to 1940 war?
weapons and organization. all need for a good result more efficiency in the italian side (this is unrealistic with the fascist regime but this is a virtual world)

I start with my proposal for the artillery:
start the study and reequip of the artillery with less types of historical so:
a 105 divisional howitzer (call it 105/23 as the historical prototype) equipped with 4 btls each normal and autotrasportabile division, 2 each for the mountain, cavalry and armoured divisions (the mountain get also 2 75/13 btls, the cavalry also a 75/27 Mod.12 horse artillery btln, the alpini stay with a 75/13 btls for each alpini rgt)
a 149 corps howitzer (149/19) 4 btlns each corp, not in the alpino corp (this get 2 105/23 btlns and 2 100/17 mod.16 btlns)
a 210 army howitzer (210/22) 3 btlns each army
a 149 army gun (149/40) 3 btlns each army

HAA gun 90/53 a btln each army and corp plus the territorial air defence needs
LAA 20/65 2 btryes for each division (plus territorial AD)
LAA 37/54 2 btryes each army and corp (+ T AD)
Infantry AT e support gun 47/32 (1 coy for rgt)
Artillery AT gun new 65/42 (1 btln for division)

Obviously they were far to complete te reequip in the summer '40

 

[tomo pauk]

How good was the Italian army with the mortars? They can be cheap, while offering a good firepower. They can also use lower quality steel for the shells vs. what was needed for the artillery shells.
Belt fed LMG - purchase a license in Czechoslovakia, or maybe the Browning.
Stick a muzzle brakel on the field artillery pieces, the decreased recoil allows for a lighter carriage and one need less capable/expensive recoil system.

 

[Shortround6]

For the Italian Infantry Battalion the situation was pretty bad, the ONLY weapons they had that were up to world standard were the 81mm mortars and the 9mm sub-machineguns. Just about everything else was an example of how NOT to do something.

Italian Artillery, at least the stuff designed between the wars, was actually pretty good, there was just never enough of it.

 

[Vincenzo]

actually the italian infantry btln had not the 81 mortar and the SMG, this were deployed only in wartime (the mortars going down from the rgt level and the SMG (in very limited number) from the production, the MAB 38 originally was a PAI (italian africa police) weapon.

the 81 mortar was a classic Brandt derivated, the 45 was a waste of resources.
belt feed LMG were not common if i'm not in wrong. sure would be a good choice

 

[Shortround6]

A problem with many Italian MGs was they had lousy primary extraction which required oiling the cartridges. Either when placed in magazines or an oil pump on the gun. Combined with North African sand this did not turn out well. The Japanese had much the same problem.

 

[Vincenzo]

a post on the organization
taking out the path before to arrive to the 1940 organization
5 army
21 corps (18 infantry, 1 alpino, 1 cavalry and 1 mechanized)
36 infantry division (8 truck borne, 12 mountain)[3 infantry rgt, 1 artillery rgt, 1 recce cavalry coy (mounted or motorized in truck borne divisions)]
4 alpine division [2 or 3 alpini rgt, 1 artillery rgt]
3 cavalry division [3 cavalry rgt (mounted), 1 bersaglieri rgt, 1 arty rgt, 1 L3 cavalry btln]
3 mechanized division [2 bersaglieri rgt, 1 tank rgt, 1 arty rgt, 1 recce cavalry btln]

 

[tomo pauk]

...
belt feed LMG were not common if i'm not in wrong. sure would be a good choice

As LMG, I was meaning a 7,5-8mm caliber MG.

 

[Shortround6]

Good start, most anything would have better, as the Breda M 30 was among the favorites in the "Worlds Worst LMG Race".

The barrel change actually wasn't bad (Wiki has it wrong) but everything else was pretty poor.

 

[Vincenzo]

would be good purchae a license for the ZB vz.26 or 30 and built it in the standard 7.35 calibre (curiosity actually was 7.57)

On infantry weapons
so infantry squad stay with the Mod. 91/32 rifle (like the historical 91/38 but the change to new calibre anticipated) and 2 new Breda 31 (the czech built on licence).

i think maybe is good take out the light mortar and concentrate the resources on 81mm mortars, i'm not aware of any successfull light mortat in production in first half of 30, the italian 45mm was not a bad design but too expansive for so few weapon, a 60mm mortar would be usefull but bought a license from french would be a too much.
For the tripod MG i think a belt feed variant of Breda 37 would be ok (and not up the imports), a 12 weapons coy in each infantry btlns is right for me (historical had a mixed coy with 8 mg and 18 45 mm mortars, the bersaglieri and alpini had not 45 mortars and full mg coy (12 weapons)).
The 81 mm mortars stay with the historical a coy each rgt up the weapons to 12 (from 6) delete the divisional mortar btln (18 weapons).
Anticipated the buy of 20mm ATR so o deployed almost in the theaters with a large tank threat
infantry guns, is impossible to had a 47 coy for rgt so stay with the 65/17 btry and add a plat of 47 (the bersagliery get the 47 coy w/o 65, the alpine only the 47 plat)

 

[tomo pauk]

For the AFV - maybe build far more 'Semovente' type AFVs, rather than tanks?

 

[Vincenzo]

adding on infantry weapons: the MAB 38 was ordered also from army for infantry plat and coy leaders, and for the tank/AB crew

armored vehicles

earlier requirement for a new armored car (historically was only in 1938 ) (also the new vehicles/tractors had a earlier requirement) put in 1936
quickly evolution to 20mm armed AC

tanks
take in consideration the experience of spain war and from the T-26 and the BT-5, was built a fast tank of around 11 tons weight a 47/32 gun in turret and 2 8mm MGs, radio, 4 men crew and light armour (called CV11/38 ), and a break tank of around 20 tons weight a 75 gun, in turret, derivated from field gun and 3 MGs, radio, 5 men crew and good armour (like a Valentine) (called CR20/39)

 

[Vincenzo]

toma had not read your last, semoventi were a emergency solution however if my proposal of a 75 armed breakthrough tank it's too much for the capability (economic and or industrial) a 75 semovente would be a substitute

 

[parsifal]

restore the triangular divisional TOE would be a start. Not embarking on modernisation programs for their rifle stoicks, and artillery parks that just resulted in a plethora of calibres with no purpose and a logistic nightmare . I don't know what to do with the Italian MGs, but its bad. scrap the celere divs. Standardise the truck park

 

[Shortround6]

Spot on with the machine guns.
The Breda M30 being one of the front runners for worlds worst.

Actually well machined which means very expensive. Barrel change was good, everything else went down hill. Well machined magazine was loaded with stripper clips. Few, if any, actual spare magazines so if damaged gun was out of action. Gun fired closed bolt which hindered cooling. Box on top with cap is the oil reservoir which squirted a small drop of oil on each cartridge as it was feed into the chamber. A dirt magnet in North Africa but without oil the gun had an all to common tendency to either pull the extractor through the cartridge rim leaving it in the chamber or pulling the back of the cartridge off the front of the cartridge and leaving the front in the chamber. Assorted other problems.
The Big Breda 37

was a pretty good gun in infantry form when a small crew (2-4 men) could feed in the 20 round feed strips on a continuous (or near) basis, took 12-13 men to carry the gun, tripod, accessories and 2100 rounds of ammo in carriers.
When adopted to use a top mount 24 round box magazine for use in AFV it desirability went down hill fast.

Not sure if Italians fired one gun and kept the other in 'reserve'. Alternated guns? or???
One man was going to need four arms, a small boy and a trained dog to keep both guns firing at a high rate with the frequent magazine changes.
Most war games vastly over rate the firepower of Italian tank machine guns. But not as much as they do the Panzer I

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Yep, the Breda 30 was just bad. IMO probably one of the worst automatic weapons ever made, for reasons already described. The Breda 37 was a good weapon in most ways, and unlike the Model 30, didn't need oil to help with extraction. Problem was, one, it was heavy. Easily the heaviest rifle caliber class air cooled MG of World War II to see wide use. Speaking of caliber, it used the 8x59mm Breda MG round. Which was used by the Model 37, the Model 38 tank MG (which could be adapted for infantry use), and the Fiat Revelli 1935 (a much modified Fiat Revelli 1914 of World War I vintage). Aside from a couple of semi auto rifle prototypes, the round was only used by Italian medium MGs.

Ironically, compared to the Model 30, the Fiat MGs mentioned didn't use oil to help with extraction. Official manuals and examinations of existing guns show no oil reservoir. However, the M35 may've used oil applied to the belted rounds, and it also used a fluted chamber (which anyone who's familiar with HK's roller locked delayed blowback rifles, MGs and SMGs will be familiar with).