Japanese aircraft were behind in timing to Allied aircraft.

[icepac]

The big question is whether the testing of Axis aircraft had them simply dumping in better allied fuel.

 

[Vincenzo]

The big question is whether the testing of Axis aircraft had them simply dumping in better allied fuel.

it's not so that work, if take a fiat A.74 engine and i use 150 octane fuel i don't get more power

 

[icepac]

it's not so that work, if take a fiat A.74 engine and i use 150 octane fuel i don't get more power

I was hinting at the people who said "superior allied fuel" made Japanese fighters outperform planes running on what they had.
You don't get the extra power until you work the engine management system to take advantage of the better fuel.

Unmodified japanese plane with superior allied fuel will likely perform the same but it's more safe for the engine.

 

[Shortround6]

The Japanese entered the war (Dec 1941) with a large collection of aircraft that were obsolete/obsolescent on the world stage.
While some western observers knew that the Japanese had small numbers of better aircraft many other observers/planners were of the impression that the Japanese were ever further behind. Hence the shock of Dec 1941/Jan 1942.

A lot of times we read that the Japanese issued specifications for advanced aircraft but sometimes we need to read between the lines.
"In 1936, the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service issued a requirement for a new heavy bomber to replace both the Ki-20 (Army Type 92 Heavy Bomber) and the Ki-1 (Army Type 93 Heavy Bomber).[1] The design called for a crew of at least four, top speed of 400 km/h (250 mph), endurance of at least five hours, and a bombload of 750 kg (1,650 lb). The design parameters were very ambitious, and few twin-engine bombers anywhere in the world could exceed such performance at that time"

Now the highlight part may very well be true but the problem is that every other nation in the world was specifying NEW bomber to go into service 2-4 years in the future to replace the existing bombers of 1936.
The Ki-21 bomber first flew in Dec 1936, was ordered into production Nov 1937 and entered service in Aug 1938.
The Ki-21 of 1938 may not have been bad, but it was certainly not outstanding. Data from Francillon

• Crew: 5-7
• Length: 16 m (52 ft 6 in)
• Wingspan: 22.5 m (73 ft 10 in)
• Height: 4.85 m (15 ft 11 in)
• Wing area: 69.9 m2 (752 sq ft)
• Empty weight: 4,691kg (10,342 lb)
• Gross weight: 7,492kg (16,517 lb)
• MAX weight: 7,916kg (17,452 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Nakajima Ha-5 KIA type 9714-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 950hp for take-off and 1080hp at 4,000 meters.
• Propellers: 3-bladed variable-pitch propellers

• Maximum speed: 432 km/h (268 mph, 262 ) at 4000 m
• Range: Normal 1500 km (932 mi); max 2700km (1680 mi)
• Service ceiling: 8,600 m (28,215 ft)

Armament

• Guns:
  • 3-5× 7.7 mm (.303 in) flexible Type 89 machine guns in nose, dorsal, ventral, beam and tail positions
• Bombs:
  • normal 750 kg (1653 lb) of bombs
  • Max 1000 kg (2205 lb) of bombs

This is for the first 420 or so aircraft, the Ki-21 II didn't show up until Dec 1940/Jan 1941.
The Ki-21B with leg powered dorsal turret didn't show up until 1942.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

It might be argued that Ki 43 have had, in 1942, lower performance and firepower than what the better European fighters had in 1938.

Agreed, Japanese fighters were very rangy and maneuverable, although not that much better than what the Bf 109F or Spitfire V had, presuming all of the fighters compared carry drop tank(s) and fly at same speed and altitude.

I really don't think that is true. Not with any external tanks that were A) ever actually used by either of those aircraft and B) could be used in a combat zone.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Couple of words re the Ki-43 and 44, their very late introduction is IJAAFs fault, the Ki-43 flew in early 1939 BEFORE the Zero, but from what i read among other things IJAAF didn't liked it not being maneuverable enough, so it was redesigned in late 1939 and lightened (which compromised the wing), but IJAAF still didn't liked it until the butterfly flaps were introduced, so finally it was put in production in spring 1941, with deliveries to units from summer. This is ONE YEAR later than the Zero.

If the IJAAF wasn't vaccillating like that, i don't see why the initially redesigned Ki-43 wouldn't have been in production from 1940 and delivered to units say fall 1940. Earlier delivery perhaps means they deal with the wing weakness issues earlier, so by the time the war comes they won't have those repeated wing failures in mid-fight. Also, many more Sentais could be re-equipped with Ki-43s, hence providing tougher opposition to the RAF/USAAF etc. than the obsolete Ki-27.

As it was the Ki-27 production continued until late 1942! Imagine how badly the IJNAF would have fared if they were as shortsighted with the Zero.

Same sort of story with the Ki-44, instead of going full production when it was ready about fall/late 1941, they only built 50 of them until fall 1942, until the Ki-44-II came along. Even couple of hundred Ki-44s built in this period means couple of Ki-44 Sentais (as opposed to just a meagre experimental chutai) available for the early war operations. As i understand the Ki-44 was more than a match for a P-40 or Hurricane, nevermind F2As, H75s etc.

PS: And same vaccilation and repeated redesign plagued the Ki-45, it took almost 3 and half years from prototype to service, whereas even the Ki-43 took merely 2 and half. Again a case of best being the enemy of good enough, the "good enough" initial redesign Ki-45 with Ha-25 engines could have been in production in 1940 even as an interim until the definitive Ki-45 KAI was ready.

Very interesting data there on the extended development time for some of these important aircraft. I believe Ki-43 also had some quite serious vibration problems in the earlier incarnation, which were fixed after the first few were deployed...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The Japanese entered the war (Dec 1941) with a large collection of aircraft that were obsolete/obsolescent on the world stage.
While some western observers knew that the Japanese had small numbers of better aircraft many other observers/planners were of the impression that the Japanese were ever further behind. Hence the shock of Dec 1941/Jan 1942.

A lot of times we read that the Japanese issued specifications for advanced aircraft but sometimes we need to read between the lines.
"In 1936, the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service issued a requirement for a new heavy bomber to replace both the Ki-20 (Army Type 92 Heavy Bomber) and the Ki-1 (Army Type 93 Heavy Bomber).[1] The design called for a crew of at least four, top speed of 400 km/h (250 mph), endurance of at least five hours, and a bombload of 750 kg (1,650 lb). The design parameters were very ambitious, and few twin-engine bombers anywhere in the world could exceed such performance at that time"

Now the highlight part may very well be true but the problem is that every other nation in the world was specifying NEW bomber to go into service 2-4 years in the future to replace the existing bombers of 1936.
The Ki-21 bomber first flew in Dec 1936, was ordered into production Nov 1937 and entered service in Aug 1938.
The Ki-21 of 1938 may not have been bad, but it was certainly not outstanding. Data from Francillon

I think most nations entered WW2 with a large number of designs which were obsolete or obsolescent, from an ideal perspective, that were still in service. Including, for example, quite a few biplanes.

Soviet: I-153, I-15, I-16, SB bomber, Il-3 bomber, TB-3 bomber (!!)
French: Amiot 143, MS. 406, Potez 630, MB 210
British: Gladiator, Swordfish, Fulmar, Hampden, Halifax, Whitley, Vickers Wellesly(!!) and Vildebeast (!!!)
Italian: CR 32, CR 42, BR.20, Fiat G.50, Ba 64, SM.81, Ro 43
US: P-26, F2A, Vought Vindicator, TBD Devastator, P-35, P-36
Germany: Ju-52, Do-15, Do-17, Hs-123, Ju-87 wasn't exactly futuristic though it remained effective for a while.

The Japanese also did have a wide variety of older obsolescent types like Ki-15, Ki-30, Ki-32 ... many of which remained in service late into the war in some limited capacity. And biplane float planes like the F1M

 

[Shortround6]

The Japanese also did have a wide variety of older obsolescent types like Ki-15, Ki-30, Ki-32 ... many of which remained in service late into the war in some limited capacity. And biplane float planes like the F1M

A lot of countries used older planes, the Japanese were using a large proportion of out of date aircraft and that is out of date when built as opposed to using them 2-3-4 years after they left the factory.

The Ki-27

• Empty weight: 1,110 kg (2,447 lb)
• Gross weight: 1,790 kg (3,946 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Nakajima Ha-1 Kotobuki Otsu (Ha-1b) 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 530 kW (710 hp) for take-off, 582 kW (780 hp) at 2,900 m (9,500 ft)
• Propellers: 2-bladed variable-pitch propeller

• Maximum speed: 470 km/h (290 mph, 250 kn) at 3,500 m (11,500 ft)
• Cruise speed: 350 km/h (220 mph, 190 kn) at 3,500 m (11,500 ft)
• Range: 627 km (390 mi, 339 nmi)
• Ferry range: 1,710 km (1,060 mi, 920 nmi)
• Time to altitude: 5,000 m (16,000 ft) in 5 minutes 22 seconds (3,056 fpm)
• 2 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Type 89 machine guns, 500 rounds/gun

Entered service in March-April of 1938 which is a couple of months after the Hurricane I showed up. Granted the Hurricane I was pretty basic in the Spring of 1938.
Problem for the Japanese is that they built 3,384 of them, Granted the end of production were as trainers.
It's successor, the Ki-43 took a while to develop and the last pre production Ki-43 was completed in Sept 1940 (same month the Hurricane II showed up in service squadron). The Koku Hombu notified Nakajima to shut down the Ki-27 production at Ota and transfer jigs and tools to another plant. Final production approval was granted on Jan 9th 1941 and the Japanese army began accepting Ki-43s in June of 1941 and issued them to the first two squadrons in Aug 1941.

IN the Summer of 1941 the British were building Hurricane IIBs and were starting IICs. They were building Spitfire Vb's and starting Vc's. The US was building P-40Ds. Backing up a year the Japanese were building Ki-27s in several factories when the British were building Spitfire IIs in one factory and were starting construction of the Hurricane II. Curtiss was starting to build P-40Bs.
The Japanese were about 1 year late and were NOT catching up.

The question is not what old aircraft were used, it is about where the leading edge of Japanese aircraft technology was. Which means how fast can you move the older planes down the line the 2nd and 3rd lines/areas.

The Ki-32 bomber was used in first weeks of the Singapore campaign. A plane that was roughly the equal but a bit behind the Fairey Battle. The British had take the Battle out of combat service well over a year earlier.

I hope to investigate other Japanese aircraft in future posts.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

A lot of countries used older planes, the Japanese were using a large proportion of out of date aircraft and that is out of date when built as opposed to using them 2-3-4 years after they left the factory.

The Ki-27

• Empty weight: 1,110 kg (2,447 lb)
• Gross weight: 1,790 kg (3,946 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Nakajima Ha-1 Kotobuki Otsu (Ha-1b) 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 530 kW (710 hp) for take-off, 582 kW (780 hp) at 2,900 m (9,500 ft)
• Propellers: 2-bladed variable-pitch propeller
• Maximum speed: 470 km/h (290 mph, 250 kn) at 3,500 m (11,500 ft)
• Cruise speed: 350 km/h (220 mph, 190 kn) at 3,500 m (11,500 ft)
• Range: 627 km (390 mi, 339 nmi)
• Ferry range: 1,710 km (1,060 mi, 920 nmi)
• Time to altitude: 5,000 m (16,000 ft) in 5 minutes 22 seconds (3,056 fpm)
• 2 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Type 89 machine guns, 500 rounds/gun

Entered service in March-April of 1938 which is a couple of months after the Hurricane I showed up. Granted the Hurricane I was pretty basic in the Spring of 1938.
Problem for the Japanese is that they built 3,384 of them, Granted the end of production were as trainers.
It's successor, the Ki-43 took a while to develop and the last pre production Ki-43 was completed in Sept 1940 (same month the Hurricane II showed up in service squadron). The Koku Hombu notified Nakajima to shut down the Ki-27 production at Ota and transfer jigs and tools to another plant. Final production approval was granted on Jan 9th 1941 and the Japanese army began accepting Ki-43s in June of 1941 and issued them to the first two squadrons in Aug 1941.

IN the Summer of 1941 the British were building Hurricane IIBs and were starting IICs. They were building Spitfire Vb's and starting Vc's. The US was building P-40Ds. Backing up a year the Japanese were building Ki-27s in several factories when the British were building Spitfire IIs in one factory and were starting construction of the Hurricane II. Curtiss was starting to build P-40Bs.
The Japanese were about 1 year late and were NOT catching up.

The question is not what old aircraft were used, it is about where the leading edge of Japanese aircraft technology was. Which means how fast can you move the older planes down the line the 2nd and 3rd lines/areas.

The Ki-32 bomber was used in first weeks of the Singapore campaign. A plane that was roughly the equal but a bit behind the Fairey Battle. The British had take the Battle out of combat service well over a year earlier.

I hope to investigate other Japanese aircraft in future posts.

Ok I see what you are saying. But I would counter by noting that the Ki-27 was roughly contemporaneous with the Gloster Gladiator right? And yet, I'd say it's a bit better as a fighter wouldn't you?

Ki-43 does come a bit late compared to Spitfire V etc., but that is maybe explainable by the Japanese not yet being in direct combat with a first line power. I think everyone was lagging until they got into the fight 'for realz'

Once Ki-43 is out, it seems to retain quite a bite for longer than you might think it would do. Certainly in 1943 it's still causing some problems for Allied pilots, even in 1944 though it's clearly outclassed by then.

 

[SaparotRob]

And I would counter that unlike the Ki-27, the Gladiator was no longer in production by 1941.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And I would counter that unlike the Ki-27, the Gladiator was no longer in production by 1941.

I suspect the Japanese might have a harder time switching over a production line. That's not a disagreement, bud.

 

[SaparotRob]

I suspect the Japanese might have a harder time switching over a production line. That's not a disagreement, bud.

That's cool, Bro. I like, have no idea when they actually stopped building them anyway.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's cool, Bro. I like, have no idea when they actually stopped building them anyway.

Industrial base. How fast might you shift production?

 

[SaparotRob]

I get that stuff first hand. I was a production planner/scheduler pre-railroad. I was expecting to be fact-checked on when the Gladiator ceased production.
There seemed to be a muddying of the waters as to old stuff still in service compared to what was in production during the war and then back again.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I don't know when they stopped making Ki-27s, I kind of doubt they were still making them in 1941 because by then they were making Ki-43. Maybe Sr6 will tell us, or maybe I can find it in one of my new (old) fighter books. I believe the Gladiator was being made until 1940, but then some were being converted to Sea Gladiators after that.

 

[SaparotRob]

I got it right?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I get that stuff first hand. I was a production planner/scheduler pre-railroad. I was expecting to be fact-checked on when the Gladiator ceased production.
There seemed to be a muddying of the waters as to old stuff still in service compared to what was in production during the war and then back again.

I am not often any sort of fact-checker around these parts, I am here to learn and sadly have little to teach, especially about Gladdy production. But I'm pretty sure they weren't long for this world against anything in 1941.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I got it right?

Pretty good guess, but looks like not quite. According to William Green Fighters Volume two, "An improved model, the Ki-27 - KAI, was proposed in 1940, and three aircraft were actually built, but by that time preparations were in hand for the production of the Ki-43 Hayabusa, and the last Ki.27 fighters were delivered in July of that year. A total of 3,386 Ki.27 fighters was (sic) built, including prototypes."

But it looks like I was partly wrong too as the Sea Gladiator production ended in 1940 as well. According to William Green, Fighters volume three:

"The last Gladiator II was delivered to the R.A.F. in April 1940, bringing total production, apart from export machines, to 311 aircraft. Of 311 aircraft. Of these, thirty-eight were modified as interim Sea Gladiators for the Fleet Air Arm, and a further sixty were built from the outset as Sea Gladiators."

So that does make the Gladiator and Sea Gladiator peers of the Ki 27, which looks to me like a better fighter. However, the picture is a bit more nuanced of course since the British were also making plenty of Hurricanes and Spitfires by then, whereas the Ki 27 was built in such large numbers because they didn't have another major fighter type until the Hayabusa which wasn't really ready for full scale production until March of 1941.

We know the Ki-27 was fairly evenly matched with the Hurricane in Malaya etc., but I don't think Ki-27 can hold up to a Spitfire. Ki-43 on the other hand, I would take that bet.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I am not often any sort of fact-checker around these parts, I am here to learn and sadly have little to teach, especially about Gladdy production. But I'm pretty sure they weren't long for this world against anything in 1941.

They were mostly gone by 1941, but all through 1940 were having quite interesting and fierce battles on a fairly large scale against CR 32 and CR 42s in North Africa, and of course, defending Malta against various Italian bombers too. They were active in the fighting in Greece. Active in Finland and up around Norway too. And in East Africa.

It was a fairly important, and reasonably effective fighter in the very early war.

According to Wikipedia there were still a few Gladiators in Greece which switched over to Hurricanes in January 1941. and there were some being used against an Arab uprising in Iraq and Syria in May - July of 1941.

The Finns were still using them during the Continuation war as sort of army co-operation planes, and one shot down a Polikarpov R-5 recon plane (biplane) in February 1943.

 

[SaparotRob]

Pretty good guess, but looks like not quite. According to William Green Fighters Volume two, "An improved model, the Ki-27 - KAI, was proposed in 1940, and three aircraft were actually built, but by that time preparations were in hand for the production of the Ki-43 Hayabusa, and the last Ki.27 fighters were delivered in July of that year. A total of 3,386 Ki.27 fighters was (sic) built, including prototypes."

But it looks like I was partly wrong too as the Sea Gladiator production ended in 1940 as well. According to William Green, Fighters volume three:

"The last Gladiator II was delivered to the R.A.F. in April 1940, bringing total production, apart from export machines, to 311 aircraft. Of 311 aircraft. Of these, thirty-eight were modified as interim Sea Gladiators for the Fleet Air Arm, and a further sixty were built from the outset as Sea Gladiators."

So that does make the Gladiator and Sea Gladiator peers of the Ki 27, which looks to me like a better fighter. However, the picture is a bit more nuanced of course since the British were also making plenty of Hurricanes and Spitfires by then, whereas the Ki 27 was built in such large numbers because they didn't have another major fighter type until the Hayabusa which wasn't really ready for full scale production until March of 1941.

We know the Ki-27 was fairly evenly matched with the Hurricane in Malaya etc., but I don't think Ki-27 can hold up to a Spitfire. Ki-43 on the other hand, I would take that bet.

I was talking about the Gladiator. I got mixed-up there about the Ki-27 and 43. Carry on.