Japanese Zero vs Spitfire vs FW 190

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You missed the part that said at low speed, what 1945 fighter pilot flying a Spit XIV P47D P51D capable of doing over 400mph would get into a turning fight with a Zero under 200mph?

Firstly I was replying to the claim that At the beginning of the war there was one fighter that was markedly superior to the Zero. That was the P-38 Lighting. I was not comparing the A6M to the Spit XIV, P47D or P51D although the latter two are in the same report.

However, what pray tell happens to your 400 mph when you enter a tight turn of any sort - other than when putting your nose seriously down? Your 400mph is history from the moment you start your turn, and, as the TAIC report shows if you are in a P-38 chasing a zero in a climbing spiral after 1 1/2 turns he has you in his gun sight. The TAIC report is clear for all three AAF types - hit then dive away immediately. Fortunately for us the Japanese never fixed the high stick forces at high speed problem or the A6M or it would have been an even more lethal unit.

As someone else suggested earlier to another poster, I would suggest you spend a few dollars and shout yourself some flying lessons or maybe a hard ride in an aerobatic aircraft and see for yourself how fast speed decays once you leave the straight and level and start pulling even moderate Gs.

You will then realize why the TAIC report includes ... Only when AAF fighters slowed or turned after a pass could the Zeke get in a shot.

Also, even though the P-38 first flew three months before the Zeke, the A6M was in active service long before the P-38. I am dismissing the RAF Lightnings because they did not have counter rotating engines and turbos so are not "true" P-38s and the RAF soon realized their error on those omissions.

I hate quoting Wiki because it is full of errors but it says The first Lightning to see active service was the F-4 version, a P-38E in which the guns were replaced by four K17 cameras.[63] They joined the 8th Photographic Squadron in Australia on 4 April 1942.[36] Three F-4s were operated by the Royal Australian Air Force in this theater for a short period beginning in September 1942.
On 29 May 1942, 25 P-38s began operating in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska.
On 9 August 1942, two P-38Es of the 343rd Fighter Group, 11th Air Force, at the end of a 1,000 miles (1,600 km) long-range patrol, happened upon a pair of Japanese Kawanishi H6K "Mavis" flying boats and destroyed them,[36] making them the first Japanese aircraft to be shot down by Lightnings.


The Pacific war was 9 days short of 6 months old when the first P-38 entered the combat zone on May 29 and those early P-38s were notorious hangar queens.

The A6M series never had that reputation and had been in combat with the AVG in China long before Pearl Harbour and had destroyed hundreds of USAAF aircraft before 9 August 1942.

Regarding the P-47 and P-51 Neither of those were in US service in 1941 but, being later designs having the benefits of the RAFs combat experience against Germany incorporated in their designs, both were superior to the P-38 in many aspects in the comparison, although the A6M was always a threat if the pilot did not stick their nose down and accelerate away. The TAIC report is clear for all three AAF types - hit then dive away immediately. Fortunately for us the Japanese never fixed the high stick forces at high speed problem, which may have been as simple as a servo tab, and never fixed the slow dive problem, which was more likely a major redesign, or the A6M or it would have been an even more lethal unit. The Allies in comparison developed the Spitfire 1 and P-51A into very different and vastly better aircraft than the first models in service, and developed every other major type far more than the Japanese developed the A6M series.

So At the beginning of the war there was one fighter that was markedly superior to the Zero. That was the P-38 Lighting is not supported by any facts and thus remains opinion.
 
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The Pacific war was 8 days short of 6 months old at on May 29 and those early P-38s were notorious hangar queens. The A6M series never had that reputation and had been in combat with the AVG in China long before Pearl Harbour and had destroyed hundreds of USAAF aircraft before 9 August 1942.[/B]

The A6M had been in combat in China long before Pearl Harbor but it had NOT been in combat with the AVG. The AVG's first combat occurred on 20 Dec 1941. In fact, the AVG never encountered the A6M in combat.
 
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The A6M had been in combat in China long before Pearl Harbor but it had NOT been in combat with the AVG. The AVG's first combat occurred on 20 Dec 1941. In fact, the AVG never encountered the A6M in combat.

My error. Thank you for the correction.

The A6M was however well and truly in combat in significant numbers in China and on 7 Dec 41 and the first USAAF P-38 combat appears to have been 9 August 1942 (if Wiki is correct).
 
As someone else suggested earlier to another poster, I would suggest you spend a few dollars and shout yourself some flying lessons or maybe a hard ride in an aerobatic aircraft and see for yourself how fast speed decays once you leave the straight and level and start pulling even moderate Gs.

Or maybe I will take advice from one of the members on here who is a fighter pilot and not fight to my enemy's strength, as an example, getting into a low speed turning fight with a Zero.

Clogging up a different forum with our inane drivel? Perhaps one dedicated to piano-playing cats?

And your experience flying WW2 combat aircraft is exactly the same as the rest of us so step down from your high horse.
 
And your experience flying WW2 combat aircraft is exactly the same as the rest of us so step down from your high horse.
Did I just hear the pot call the kettle black? See that lump in buffnut's cheek? That's his tongue, man. Not everybody is deathly serious all the time. Oops, like I'm being right now. Here, please hold the reins while I dismount. Got a mounting step handy? It's a long way down from up here!
Cheers,
Wes
 
Or maybe I will take advice from one of the members on here who is a fighter pilot and not fight to my enemy's strength, as an example, getting into a low speed turning fight with a Zero.
Or a low speed turning fight with a Cessna Acrobat in your T34. Same dynamic, smaller scale, lighter G loads. "Know thine enemy!"
 
And your experience flying WW2 combat aircraft is exactly the same as the rest of us so step down from your high horse.

No high horse here, mate, which is why I said "our inane drivel". Those who lack our fascination with aviation history tend to look on, with pitying shakes of the head, at the detail we cite in our discussions. To many non-aviationists, our discussions are, at best, boring and, at worst, pointless, inane drivel.
 
No high horse here, mate, which is why I said "our inane drivel". Those who lack our fascination with aviation history tend to look on, with pitying shakes of the head, at the detail we cite in our discussions. To many non-aviationists, our discussions are, at best, boring and, at worst, pointless, inane drivel.
If only we had been in charge, things would have been different.
 
Did I just hear the pot call the kettle black? See that lump in buffnut's cheek? That's his tongue, man. Not everybody is deathly serious all the time. Oops, like I'm being right now. Here, please hold the reins while I dismount. Got a mounting step handy? It's a long way down from up here!
Cheers,
Wes

Righto, totally misread the context of these posts, I'll pull my head in.
 
I agree that the Spitfire was EVENTUALLY developed as far as it could practically be taken, but the types that did almost all the heavy lifting during the war years were "interim" types. Models knowingly lacking features and refinements were thrust into service for fear of leaving a gap.
In another universe, as was stated on this thread previously, the Mk.III would have followed the BOB era Mk.II's, and to be superseded by the Mk.VIII. I am not sure what development model the Mk.XIV was an interim for, perhaps the Mk.XVIII or 21? If the UK had the breathing room available, perhaps the Mk.V developmental "low point" and subsequent performance deficit wouldn't have happened

Many of the Mk III features were gradually introduced, for example the C wing had the revised undercarriage geometry and internal bullet proof glass became standard.
The real problem was what Quill called the great sausage factory, Castle Bromwich. It basically produced the Mk I type airframe for the entire war. Mass production has its downsides. When it finally switched in 1945 it was to the radically different F21. The Supermarine factories converted to the superior Mk VII airframe in 1943.
The unfortunate aspect of favoring quantity over quality is that it gave Sholto Douglas the chance to waste 100s of Spitfires and pilots over France.
The Mk XIV was interim to the ultimate Spitfire to be produced by Supermarine, the Mk XVIII. The F 21 was intended for CB.
The reason the Merlin 45 was introduced was due to a shortage of equipment to produce the gears for the 2 speed drive. As I learned in my machine design class years ago gears are difficult to design and must be very precisely manufactured.
One other significant difference between the XX and the 45 that gets overlooked is the propeller reduction gearing. The XX had the standard bomber ratio of .42 while the 45 used the standard fighter ratio of .477. The reason for the lower propeller speed was to compensate for the larger propellers used on bombers (max tip speed). There must have been a bit of a performance hit for the Mk II Hurricane using the XX. The V-1650-1 did use the .477 ratio. The first Spitfire IXs used the Merlin 61 with the .42 ratio but quickly switched to the 63 with the proper ratio.
In order to get the Spitfire V into service as quickly as possible Rolls Royce converted 500 Merlin IIIs to 45s and installed them in Mk I and II airframes.
Incidentally the Spitfire F 21 had a longer undercarriage allowing a larger diameter propeller and therefore it used the Griffon 61 with a .451 ratio whereas the Mk XIV used the 65 with a .51 ratio.
 
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Fortunately for us the Japanese never fixed the high stick forces at high speed problem.
Quite likely a torsional rigidity issue with the Zero's light weight construction. Deflecting an aileron forcefully at high speed has been sometimes known to actually twist a wing, changing its AOA at the tip, with unpleasant results.
Cheers,
Wes
 
Quite likely a torsional rigidity issue with the Zero's light weight construction. Deflecting an aileron forcefully at high speed has been sometimes known to actually twist a wing, changing its AOA at the tip, with unpleasant results.
Cheers,
Wes
I thought the Zero couldn't roll because the ailerons were too big for the pilot to move at high speed? Pilot simply didn't have the strength to move them at high speed? But they were awesome at low speed.

If that's not right please correct me.
 
Hi Wes and Pinsog
I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle but certainly agree with Wes that wing flexing from aileron input is a known and often dangerous problem. I do however have issues with the repeated claim that the A6M series was made from excessively light materials. When you compare the A6M with American aircraft (except the P-39 rear fuselage) the difference is huge but when compared to the Spitfire fuselage the skins and structure are similar, except over the fuel tank where the Spitfire has a heavy skin but no structure. The Spitfire wing has a massive leading edge skin by anyone's standards but behind the spar it is again similar to the A6M series.

Pinsog - adding a servo tab would have overcome this problem which is why I originally said that the solution may have been as simple as that.
 
I thought the Zero couldn't roll because the ailerons were too big for the pilot to move at high speed? Pilot simply didn't have the strength to move them at high speed? But they were awesome at low speed.

If that's not right please correct me.
That is correct, but somebody mentioned "boosting" them with a servo tab, a relatively simple solution and one Horikoshi Jiro would surely have adopted if it didn't have drawbacks. I was speculating about possible drawbacks.
If you're not familiar, a servo tab is a small hinged trailing edge tab similar to a trim tab that uses the energy of the relative wind to help deflect a control surface into a high energy slip stream. The drawback to having a "boosted" aileron like this is that it applies exponentially greater loads to its attach fittings and supporting structure. Torsional rigidity is one of the most difficult parameters to achieve in wing design while minimizing weight.
Cheers,
Wes
 
When you compare the A6M with American aircraft (except the P-39 rear fuselage) the difference is huge but when compared to the Spitfire fuselage the skins and structure are similar, except over the fuel tank where the Spitfire has a heavy skin but no structure. The Spitfire wing has a massive leading edge skin by anyone's standards but behind the spar it is again similar to the A6M series.
Which is why the Spit had durability issues when adapted to carrier ops.
Cheers,
Wes
 
when compared to the Spitfire fuselage the skins and structure are similar
With three main differences that affect seaborne durability.
1) Lighter weight of the Zero meant slower landing speeds and softer touchdowns.
2) The round, conical fuselage shape of the Zero gave greater resistance to buckling than the oval cross section of the Spit, especially with regard to lateral loads.
3) The narrow landing gear of the Spit encouraged more tipping and swerving under arrestment, imposing more lateral loads on the after fuselage.
Cheers,
Wes
 
With three main differences that affect seaborne durability.
1) Lighter weight of the Zero meant slower landing speeds and softer touchdowns.
2) The round, conical fuselage shape of the Zero gave greater resistance to buckling than the oval cross section of the Spit, especially with regard to lateral loads.
3) The narrow landing gear of the Spit encouraged more tipping and swerving under arrestment, imposing more lateral loads on the after fuselage.
Cheers,
Wes
I would also add a bouncy undercarriage not corrected until the Seafire XVII.
 
This thread is noteworthy as it compares two short-ranged European land-based fighters to a long-ranged naval fighter, akin to comparing a Grumman F6F Hellcat to a Lavochkin La-7. Two very different roles and aircraft requirements. Perhaps the more apt comparison with the Zero is the Seafire or Firefly.
 
This thread is noteworthy as it compares two short-ranged European land-based fighters to a long-ranged naval fighter, akin to comparing a Grumman F6F Hellcat to a Lavochkin La-7. Two very different roles and aircraft requirements. Perhaps the more apt comparison with the Zero is the Seafire or Firefly.
Or you could look at it as two highly touted fighters that evolved to a great extent in their lifetimes vs one who didn't didn't change all that much. Or you could rate them by the size of their fan clubs. Or by their kill counts, or by their appearances in popular media, or....ad infinitum.
Cheers,
Wes
 

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