SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Aw c'mon, let me remain iggerant and let me imagine Super Bugs doing beam defense maneuvers.
Japanese Zero vs Spitfire vs FW 190
- Thread starter Chiron
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
4 Zeros and 1 KI43 shot down vs 28 Spitfies shot down (this doesn't include at least 10 Spitfires that were run out of fuel over their own territory by Zeroes flying 500 miles 1 way) I'd say a Zero pilots chance of survival was excellent as long as he was fighting Spitfires.
A Zeros ailerons didn't stiffen up until 300 mph, not barely over 200, and according to the Zero vs Spitfire test at the first of this thread the Spitfire could BARELY out roll a Zero at high speed.
5 wins vs 28 losses. Could someone please name a sports team who's coach wouldn't get fired with such a dismal record?
Who would put a wager on a boxer, mma fighter, tennis player etc that had a 5 win 28 loss record against the opponent they were about to face?
The Spitfire was on the receiving end of a 1 sided, curb stomping beat down by the Zero, end of story.
I continue to be amazed and perplexed by this thread.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Comparing the AIRCRAFT, the Spits operated by the RAAF were far superior. TACTICS and pilot skill came into play. Why don't you use the same rationale 19–20 June 1944?
Shortround6
Major General
For some unexplained reason, the test pitted Spitfires with special, high altitude rated engines against the Zeros at altitudes below the FTH of the Spitfires AND did not allow the Spitfires to use the over boost that was already common in Europe with these engines.
From the report
" The pattern established in these tests confirmed the findings of operational experience over Darwin, where the Spitfires were always able to dominate the upper height band without Japanese challenge."
Granted you can't always pick the altitude you want to fight at but at 20,000ft and below the Spitfires were flying at part throttle.
From the report
" The pattern established in these tests confirmed the findings of operational experience over Darwin, where the Spitfires were always able to dominate the upper height band without Japanese challenge."
Granted you can't always pick the altitude you want to fight at but at 20,000ft and below the Spitfires were flying at part throttle.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Because they can do the "Thatch" Weave?
I just read that somewhere on the internet, so it must be true...
Yes sir, that is correct
Abraham Lincoln said it
I have to disagree with you on that Flyboy. Spitfires based in Europe I would probably agree, but the Spitfire V with the filter used in Australia was most definitely not far superior. I don't have time to post the whole test but here are quotes from the 2 test pilots that flew the Spitfire and Hap in the test. The Spitfires tail was bent 9 degrees during the trial
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well you can disagree all you want, you're actually cherry picking. Take the filter off and enter combat "boom and zoom" and see what happens. The MkV was some 30 MPH faster than the A6M2 and wasn't hampered by high stick forces at high speeds. The beating the RAAF took over Darwin in May 43' was soon rectified once new tactics were established. The biggest factor here was tactics and pilot skill.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
From someone who was there...
"Despite the much vaunted superiority of the Spitfire, low hours of experience,
questionable command decisions and tactics and mechanical problems with propeller
constant speed units (propeller pitch), glycol coolant leaks and engine wear due to
the dust and constant cannon failures (freezing at altitude) were common. These
aircraft also differed from the standard Spitfire Vc in that they had been fitted with a
Vokes air filter beneath their nose to reduce the amount of sand and dust which
entered the engine, which also reduced their performance by around 30 mph."
"Despite the much vaunted superiority of the Spitfire, low hours of experience,
questionable command decisions and tactics and mechanical problems with propeller
constant speed units (propeller pitch), glycol coolant leaks and engine wear due to
the dust and constant cannon failures (freezing at altitude) were common. These
aircraft also differed from the standard Spitfire Vc in that they had been fitted with a
Vokes air filter beneath their nose to reduce the amount of sand and dust which
entered the engine, which also reduced their performance by around 30 mph."
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
A great post from a deceased member (RIP Parsifal)
ww2aircraft.net
Air combat over Darwin
This the thumbnail of operations for the Darwin air battle On 19 February 1942, 188 planes were launched against Darwin whose harbour was full of ships. Eight ships were sunk, two were beached and later refloated and many of the other 35 ships in the harbour were damaged by bomb or machine gun...
ww2aircraft.net
Take that air filter off and that updraft carb on the Spitfire will fill that Merlin full of dirt on every trip down that unpaved Australian runway. A trip or 2 like that and you won't have to wait until a Zero shoots you down your motor is going to blow up by itself.
The Spitfire HAD to have that filter to survive in that environment. The Zero, P40, Wildcat etc were better aircraft in THAT environment.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Sorry, that part of the story is a bit exaggerated and the filters probably did more harm than good and if you read the complete references I posted it shows how these "inferior Spitfires" (and green pilots) were eventually able to stop the Japanese.
Shortround6
Major General
So leave the filter on, yank the Merlin 46 engine out, stick in a Merlin 45 and let set the boost limit at 15lbs and see what the performance difference is between the Spitfire and the Zero.
The trials were done in Aug of 1943 for crying out loud. For the trials the Merlin 46 was limited to 9lbs of boost. Less than they were using in the BoB in 1940.
In fact the Merlin 46 tracked the Merlin III pretty closely for power (a bit higher) from sea level to around 16,000ft while using 9lbs boost to the Merlin IIIs 6lbs.
Merlin 46 was using a bigger impeller, a higher gear ratio and a modified inlet and guide vane.
The difference with the Merlin 46 is that the power to the prop kept going up as the plane climbed to 21,000ft instead of falling off.
Why the Aussies got the Merlin 46 I don't know (British didn't want to send Spit IXs with Merlin 61s?)
Why the Aussies operated them with a 9lb limit I don't know (Not enough spare engines so they didn't want to use emergency power?)
Why the Aussies didn't get regular Spit VCs with Merlin 45s I don't know.
Merlin 45 running 16lbs of boost was good for 1515hp at 11,000ft.
Merlin 46 running 9lbs of boost was good for about 1020hp at 11,000ft.
I wonder how a fight between a Zero and a Spit Vc with a Merlin 45 using 16lbs boost would have gone at 10,-15,000ft? Even with the filter.
Merlin 46 was good for 1415hp at 14,000ft at 16lbs boost.
The trials were done in Aug of 1943 for crying out loud. For the trials the Merlin 46 was limited to 9lbs of boost. Less than they were using in the BoB in 1940.
In fact the Merlin 46 tracked the Merlin III pretty closely for power (a bit higher) from sea level to around 16,000ft while using 9lbs boost to the Merlin IIIs 6lbs.
Merlin 46 was using a bigger impeller, a higher gear ratio and a modified inlet and guide vane.
The difference with the Merlin 46 is that the power to the prop kept going up as the plane climbed to 21,000ft instead of falling off.
Why the Aussies got the Merlin 46 I don't know (British didn't want to send Spit IXs with Merlin 61s?)
Why the Aussies operated them with a 9lb limit I don't know (Not enough spare engines so they didn't want to use emergency power?)
Why the Aussies didn't get regular Spit VCs with Merlin 45s I don't know.
Merlin 45 running 16lbs of boost was good for 1515hp at 11,000ft.
Merlin 46 running 9lbs of boost was good for about 1020hp at 11,000ft.
I wonder how a fight between a Zero and a Spit Vc with a Merlin 45 using 16lbs boost would have gone at 10,-15,000ft? Even with the filter.
Merlin 46 was good for 1415hp at 14,000ft at 16lbs boost.
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
The Zero was designed to fight in a WWI scenario.
Later allied planes were designed to fight in a WWII scenario.
Maybe you should look at all the facts, the Spit V's used over Darwin were worn out aero planes running 9 PSI boost Merlin 46"s, of the 26 spits shot down 19 were lost when they were attacking the bombers, their primary target, 5 were shot down in one engagement when both the top cover squadron and attacking squadron both dived on the bombers via a communication problem and were bounced, only 6 of the 96 pilots who flew over Darwin had ever been in combat. You would not be amazed if you read the facts.
Both the Me109 and P40 were made with tropical filters, the P40's by Vokes, what did the Japanese know that the British Germans and Americans didn't?.
Japanese aircraft that flew from SE Asian air bases against Darwin didn't needed the filters in the 1st place.
So if the Zero was based in Darwin or the middle East it would need a tropical filter, like the Spitfire, 109, P40 and every other plane.
I'll read that tomorrow. I
They probably had the intake on top of the cowling where there isn't as much dust. The Wildcat didn't have a dust filter, neither did the P47 or P38.
I wouldn't consider the Spitfire having its intake down low a design flaw, it was designed to defend England from prepared fields, a job which it did very well at. The problem arose when due to the demands of war it was operated out of dirty nasty unprepared field where it was forced to use a filter which hampered performance. The Zero didn't have this particular issue. The Spitfire was a fine aircraft but this particular Spitfire vs that particular Zero didn't fair well. A Spitfire 9 over Europe vs a Zero would likely have had a much different outcome
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No, the Zero air intake was up high out of the dust. Did ALL P40's have a filter or only the Merlin powered P40's?
