Jumo 211N, P, R - looking for some good info

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Some data is available (can be forund on the AEHS site - AEHS Home ), what I'd like to know is the timing (years of design, trials etc) of the engines.
     

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  2. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

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    #2 Siegfried, Mar 9, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
    This is a google translation of wikipedia.de on the Jumo 211

    Jumo 211 A
    The first production version of 1937 with 1000 horse power at 2200 min -1 . 0.615 kg / hp.

    Jumo 211 Ba
    Run with a ground-level and loader for 5200 m nominal height. Translation loader 7.82. Reduction gear ratio of 0.595. Start power 1200 hp at 2400 rpm -1 . 0.55 kg / hp.

    Jumo 211 Da
    Jumo 211 Ba, but with a loader translation of 11.375 and a reduction gear ratio of 0.645, starting power 1200 hp.

    Jumo 211 B, G
    Jumo 211 Da, but with different gear ratios. Start power 1200 hp at 2400 rpm -1

    Jumo 211 F (L, M, R)
    Design with charger and improved engine cooling. power 1340 hp at 2600 min -1 . 0.54 kg / hp.

    Jumo 211 J
    A Jumo 211 F with intercooler takeff power 1420 hp at 2600 min -1 . 0.51 kg / hp.

    Jumo 211 N
    How 211 F with increased speed and boost pressure. Power 1450 hp at 2700 min -1 .

    Jumo 211 P
    With improved intercooling. Off power 1500 hp at 2700 min -1 .

    Jumo 211 Q
    Experimental version of the 211 F with exhaust turbocharger for improved performance at high altitudes.

    I have a vague recollection that the Jumo 211P was intended for the Me 264 bomber and that there was a supply issue with the. Also that the aircraft was to carry about 1 hours GM-1.

    The engine didn't look to bad a performer in its final versions.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Jumo 211 engine production.
    Junkers Engines - Jumo 211
    Magdeburg. 24,267 engines produced Jul 1937 to Aug 1944.
    Kothen. 20,911 engines produced 1938 to Feb 1944.
    Leipzig. 17,032 engines produced 1942 to Aug 1944.

    As you can see, Jumo 211 engine production dropped by one third during February 1944 and ended during August 1944. When was the Jumo 211P design ready for production?
     
  4. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Thanks.
    Am I wrong to assume that those 3 engines were fitted with 3-speed superchargers? A time line would be nice to have, too :)
    The Jumo 211 production was brought to the end since the factories were to produce the Jumo 213. The 211s from the title look like 1943 is the year, though without some better info we will never know how much was produced, when.
     
  5. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    From the data it looks like N/P were equivalent to F/J with a little increase in boost and rpm (+100), nothing more.
    The 211R looks like a Junkers version of the AS-engines from Daimler-Benz - sacrify low-level performace for improved altitude performance by using a bigger supercharger.

    B/D were the same engines, just with a different prop/engine rpm ratio. Same with F/G. I have actually no idea where the strange Ba/Da designations come from, that's something unusual and may point to a special engine version.
     
  6. cimmex

    cimmex Member

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    In Germany usually the “a” behind a model number stands for the export version, so Ba/Da designations are the same as B/D but for export.
    cimmex
     
  7. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    two speed superchargers Tomo. They used a partially closed throttle at sea level to prevent overboosting the engine which cause the slight loss in power shown in the charts. as the plane climbed the throttle was opened until it hit 3900-4250ft area as was wide open.
     
  8. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Thanks for clarifications :)
     
  9. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    figvii-7.jpg

    1943 Jumo 211 production decline reflects conversion of the Kothen plant to Jumo 213 production. However Jumo 211 engine production stabilized for only a few months. By April 1944 the other two engine plants were also converting while still completing a few Jumo 211 engines.

    IMO RLM was unlikely to approve mass production of new Jumo 211 engine variants after January 1943. Junkers would need an 1,800 hp Uber Jumo 211 to reverse this production decision, similiar to the DB605 ASM engine.
     
  10. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    That depends where one wants those 1800 HP to be achieved - BMW-801 was capable for that, but not at altitudes it was needed (nobody had such an engine, unless the turbo is installed).
    The Jumo 211R was able to make 1130 HP at 23600 ft (for Steig und Kampfleistung - Climb and combat) in 1943, same as the DB 605A when cleared for Notleistung (Emergency) - and that was not allways the case for DB-605As of 1943. If we run the DB-605A at Steig und Kampfleistung (1,30 ata @ 2600 rpm), it looses by some 150 HP vs. The Jumo 211R.
    Wonder how well the 'late' Jumo 211s would've operated at greater boost, with better fuel and MW injection.
     
  11. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Is that better then the Jumo 213? If not then conversion to Jumo 213 production makes more sense then conversion to Jumo 211R production.
     
  12. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The main question is 'when'. If the answer is 'in 1943', the conclusion is clear - the late Jumo 211s are far more viable solution than Jumo 213.
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    DB605 engine teething problems weren't fixed until the fall of 1943. Until then the DB605 was limited to something like 1,320 hp.

    Junkers had excess production capacity for the Jumo 211 engine by 1942. If the 1,420 hp Jumo 211J (or later version) had been available by early 1943 I think it would have powered some versions of the Me-109G and/or Me-110G.

    Of course that same excess Jumo engine production capacity could have been employed to make Jumo 222 engines. As long as Milch remains in charge of RLM you cannot count on rational German engine production decisions. :)
     
  14. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Well, the Jumo 222 deserves a thread on it's own, if not a whole web site :)
    The late Jumo 211s seem like good choices for Ju-88s, provided they were really reliable.
     
  15. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Bear in mind the Ju-88 was a light bomber. Critical altitude isn't all that high so you don't need an Uber supercharger. You want high speed cruise @ 4,000 meters to minimize your time in enemy airspace.
     
  16. johnbr

    johnbr Well-Known Member

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    Did they look at puting 2 stage supercharger of the Jumbo-213 on the Jumbo-211.
     
  17. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

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    The Jumo 211R seems to have been planned to power the Ta 154, Milch's pet project. One other engine that was to power the Ta 154 was the BMW 801R which had a two stage supercharger with independant drives somewhat in the manner of some American Pratt-Whitney R-2800. The Ta 154 was very fast, even on the Jumo 211F but it slowed down once the radar equipement was fixed, which I think would have made it incapable of intercepting night bomber Mosquitos. I'm not quite sure what "R" stands for; is it just sequential or did it imply something.

    One problem for the Germans in 1942/43 most of 1944 was the lack of a 2000+ hp engine in any numbers. There is a trickle of Jumo 213A and DB603A in late 1942 or early 1943 but they are opperating in the 1750hp range. The RAF has the Sabre, the USAAF has the R-2800 (though it was initially a 1850hp engine)

    One need just to comsider the USAAF without the R-2800. It's a very poor airforce as the Hellcat, Corsair and P-47 are lacklustre aircraft powered by the R-2600 and the B-26 would scarecelly be possible. So 1943 the Germans have 3 engines in the 1700hp range: BMW 801, Jumo 213A and DB603A. That's a lot of duplication.

    Surely one of these companies could have produced a 2000hp engine?

    I see two scenarios:

    Daimler Benz doesn't bother with the DB605 but all the effort goes into the DB603, this is probably easier given the DB603 has been around a long time already. The DB603 if developed at the rate the DB605 was gets to 2000hp fairly quickly.

    Junkers doesn't bother with the Jumo 213A and goes straight for the Jumo 222. This is risky for junkers if they fail or are belated but it is not risky for the Luftwaffe since the
    BMW 801 and DB603 are already providing the power needed in that 1750hp range. All that Jumo 211 production is going somewhere: mainly Ju 88's where it produces a rather slow aircraft however the advanced forms to the Jumo 211 are adaquete for some tasks. The Ju 88 series equiped with the Jumo 222 is however a 440 mph machine (as Ju 388)
     
  18. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The Ju-88 was also the night fighter, so the late 211s do offer good power both for a medium bomber and NF use.

    The 211 was out of production in time the 2-stage 213s were being produced. The data I've downloaded from AEHS do not make notion that 2 stage 211 was ever produced. Though I like the idea :)
     
  19. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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  20. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Not forgetting the Griffon, which was 1800hp+ in single stage form and 2000+ in 2 stage 60-series form.

    The Griffon is the closest allied engine in service to the Jumo 213 and Daimler Benz DB605 in terms of capacity and size. It initially is more powerful, but doesn't get the development effort that went into the Merlin, and didn't rev nearly as hard as the Jumo 213 (with a very similar stroke).


    The problem with the DB603 was that it was very long, although no heavier than a Griffon or a Jumo 213 - a full 550mm/21.8" longer than the former. It is quite a bit heavier than the DB605, however.

    I agree that choosing one or the other may have been the way to go. It may have also freed up resources to sort the DB604 - which had much more power potential than the DB603, from little extra capacity.


    There were a lot of technical issues with the Jumo 222, as we discussed in another thread. Perhaps if they didn't fiddle around with it so much and set to fixing the problems rather than trying to extract more power it may have been a better chance at production (somewhat akin to what happened to the Sabres at Napier - while they couldn't manufacture a reliable production engine they still had time to fiddle with multiple speed 2 stage engines).
     
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