Kawasaki Ki-100

[GregP]

The Bf 109 has a VERY good claim to the best fighter ever built. It isn't the only one to have such, but is certainly in there near the top.

I might add that the Bf 109 and Spitfire traded the title of "The Best" back and forth for a LONG time. Even at the end of the war, if you had a good pilot in a 109 versus almost anything, it was dangerous.

Interesting you should mention the Bf 109 F, which was the favorite of the top 3 German Aces out of all the various models.

 

[kool kitty89]

Interesting you should mention the Bf 109 F, which was the faorite of the top 3 German Aces out of all the various models.

For fighter-v-fighter combat ... especially at the time of its introduction, the F series /was/ among the top performing dogfighters in the world. But take into account the need to intercept heavy bombers, heavier armaments, greater range/endurance, safe and consistent ground handling, and all around friendliness to novice pilots, it had a great many weaknesses.

It was a good offensive weapon for experienced pilots, not so great of a defensive weapon or used by more average (let alone novice) pilots.

Combine that with the fact that the RLM put so much emphasis on mass producing the 109 and little on rationalizing it for that purpose or replacing it entirely, then the lack of emphasis on developing defensive weapons, and you greatly stunt the playing field for viable alternatives.

 

[GregP]

It gets my vote for best fighter ever built, but if we all agreed, there wouldn't be any discussion.

There was NOTHING wrong with the Bf 109 that couldn't have been corrected ... they just never did. Same as they COULD have fixed the Hellcat's slow roll rate, but it would have interrupted production. So, had the Luftwaffe powers-that-be ever thought it seriously needed correcting, they probably would have. They never seemed to really come to grips with the pilot shortage or even the true situation on the front lines, and had NO CLUE when the tide of the war changed againts them. They never even made a priority of supplying the troops in the Soviet Union ... they did it when they thought they could get away with it. If you think that little of your troops, I can guarantee the troops return the favor.

In the hands of a decent pilot the Bf 109 was a very good fighter. I don't really think novices were ever going to win a war in ANY mount. They died in droves while getting seasoned, and the ones that did live turned into decent pilots.

 

[Ottobon]

Interesting post, Ottobon. The He 162 is a bad axample and was lethal to non-veteran pilots.

Don't get me wrong, i think the He 162 was a great design and if it would of came from a environment which had skilled labor and the materials to build it properly, and was designed specifically as a fighter with the Me 262 being more of a bomber interceptor then atleast on paper or in a exceptionally built example it was a good plane for a expert pilot by any standard during WWII (even in the immediate postwar i think it pretty decent design for the brief period before the Korean war heating everything up, especially with theoretical addition of Jumo 004s)

My point was more that at a time where your resources are getting drained and your Air Force may be filled with more novices then hardened experts the Ki-100 was beautifully logical. Both Japan and Germany had temptation to either make "wonder weapons" or simply churn more of something that is just good enough, with the Ki-100 Japan took the smart route rather then the glamorous one.

 

[razor1uk]

Great info and debating also it is a nod to both the German Engineer who helped initially teach assist the design team who created the what eventually became Ki-61 monoplane, which had from the outset been designed with wide track U/C, internal armour plates had fuel and oil tanks with some self sealing abilites and intial high speed design.

Those along with the re-aero-packaging of the replacment engine are what led to its high regard by its pilots its enemies as well.

 

[GrauGeist]

My point was more that at a time where your resources are getting drained and your Air Force may be filled with more novices then hardened experts the Ki-100 was beautifully logical. Both Japan and Germany had temptation to either make "wonder weapons" or simply churn more of something that is just good enough, with the Ki-100 Japan took the smart route rather then the glamorous one.

Japan was investing a great deal of time, money and resources working on "wonder weapons" just the same as Germany:
J7W, KI-201, MXY7, J8M, S1A, KI-93, etc...

The KI-100 was a "happy accident" and not the result of a concept developed from paper. The KI-100 was a solution seen both from the Fw190 point of view and because the factory, where the problematic Ha-140 engines were being produced, was bombed, leaving nearly three hundred KI-61-II airframes without an engine.

 

[GregP]

It surely would be nice to get a Ki-100 flying after all these years.

 

[GrauGeist]

It surely would be nice to get a Ki-100 flying after all these years.

I think there's only one complete KI-100 left on earth, Greg.

If memory serves right, it's at the Cosford Aerospace Museum in Britain

 

[GregP]

Yeah. There are persistent rumors of somone who is restoring three Ki-61 to flight status. The Ki-100 was started with Ki-61 airframes modified to take the radial, so if there are any Ki-61 airframes, it could be done if someone were of such a mind.

But I have heard these rumors for YEARS and nothing has surfaced as a project. On the surface, that would seem unlikely since many people know people and at least the existence of such projects gets out. Rod Lewis has an A-20 at Aerotrader being restored and a lot of people know it. Rod and Carl Scholl have requested no pics, and so far everyone is following the request but, once it gets out on the ramp, SOMEONE will post a pic.

Since I've been hearing about the Ki-61s for 5+ years, my feeling is that if it were true, we'd know more than just rumors. But, maybe there is a secret hangar in an undisclosed location ... one never knows for sure. Perhaps in the Mbwebwe province, on the Mbwebwe river, in the village of Mbwebwe, George is slaving away on three Ki-61s ... watch out for that tree.

We heard rumors for YEARS about a cache of Ha 1112's and THAT turned out to be true.

There are so few Japanese plane from the war flyable that any addition would be news. At the Planes of Fame, we DO have a real Aichi D3A Val, but we need to finish some other things before we have room to even work on it. Hopefully within the next year or so we'll get at least ONE current project out of the restoration hangar. That would be a good thing. The next project in line after that is not for me to say. I'll work on whatever project comes along. I'd LIKE it to be the Val, but the Museum decides the priority order of things, as they should, being the owners.

 

[rochie]

I think there's only one complete KI-100 left on earth, Greg.

If memory serves right, it's at the Cosford Aerospace Museum in Britain

Here ya go Dave.
It is at Cosford but I took these in 2011 when it was at Hendon.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

It gets my vote for best fighter ever built, but if we all agreed, there wouldn't be any discussion.

There was NOTHING wrong with the Bf 109 that couldn't have been corrected ... they just never did. Same as they COULD have fixed the Hellcat's slow roll rate, but it would have interrupted production. So, had the Luftwaffe powers-that-be ever thought it seriously needed correcting, they probably would have. They never seemed to really come to grips with the pilot shortage or even the true situation on the front lines, and had NO CLUE when the tide of the war changed againts them. They never even made a priority of supplying the troops in the Soviet Union ... they did it when they thought they could get away with it. If you think that little of your troops, I can guarantee the troops return the favor.

In the hands of a decent pilot the Bf 109 was a very good fighter. I don't really think novices were ever going to win a war in ANY mount. They died in droves while getting seasoned, and the ones that did live turned into decent pilots.

Quick question Greg, what was something that could've/should've been fixed?

Japan was investing a great deal of time, money and resources working on "wonder weapons" just the same as Germany:
J7W, KI-201, MXY7, J8M, S1A, KI-93, etc...

The KI-100 was a "happy accident" and not the result of a concept developed from paper. The KI-100 was a solution seen both from the Fw190 point of view and because the factory, where the problematic Ha-140 engines were being produced, was bombed, leaving nearly three hundred KI-61-II airframes without an engine.

But are those really "Wunder Waffen"? They seem like logical steps in aircraft advancement for the Japanese.

 

[GregP]

Well, they should have moved the landing gear outward. It was done in experiments. They should have fitted a good bubble canopy. That was also done in experiments. They should have made an effort to make the Bf 109 G series lighter, and that, too, could have been done. I think they should have changed the wing mount to be a 4-poiont rather than a 3-point. They should have made provision for more internal fuel, at least in a tank that could be used or not used as the mission required.

Willy should have worked on making the controls easier to use at higher speeds, and should have fitted trim to the rudder at least, if not the aileron, too. None of these were major changes except the 3-point to 4-point wing mount bolts.

I'd have though seriously about a slightly larger, scaled-up Bf 109 ... maybe 10%. There are other changes, but many could be done with little difficulty.

Here's a shot of one of the radial-powered Bf 109 prototypes.

You'll note the canopy is MUCH better than production planes.

Here's a shot of improved landing gear.

There are more, but you get the idea. There was nothing that could NOT have been made better or lighter. The real need was to settle on an improved design and BUILD it.
No reason THAT couldn't have been incorporated.

 

[GrauGeist]

Here ya go Dave.
It is at Cosford but I took these in 2011 when it was at Hendon.

Sweet shots, Karl! Thanks!!

But are those really "Wunder Waffen"? They seem like logical steps in aircraft advancement for the Japanese.

Take a look at the aircraft that I listed there and google them (or look through the indexes of any books you may have of Japanese aircraft)...some of them may have been a good project pre-war, but by 1943-44, Japan could not afford to divert their manpower and materials away from proven production aircraft. Not if they hoped to save themselves...

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Well, they should have moved the landing gear outward. It was done in experiments. Thye should have fitted a good bubble canopy. That was also done in experiments. They should have made an effort to make the Bf 109 G series lighter, and that, too, could have been done. I think they should have changeds the wing mount to be a 4-poiont rather than a 3-point. They should have made provision for more internal fuel, at least in a tank that could be used or not used as the mission required.

Willy should have worked on making the controls easier to use at higher speeds, and should have fuitted trim to the rudder at least, if not the aileron, too. None of these were majot changes except the 3-point to 4-point wing mount bolts.

I'd have though seriously about a slightly larger, scaled-up Bf 109 ... maybe 10%. There are other changes, but many could be done with little difficulty.

Here's a shot of one of the radial-powered Bf 109 prototypes.

View attachment 295632

You'll note the canopy is MUCH better than production planes.

Here's a shot of improved landing gear.

View attachment 295633


There are more, but you get the idea. There was nothing that could NOT have been made better or lighter. The real need was to settle on an improved design and BUILD it.
No reason THAT couldn't have been incorporated.

Very interesting Greg, it makes me wonder on how a developed He 100 would compare with it.

Take a look at the aircraft that I listed there and google them (or look through the indexes of any books you may have of Japanese aircraft)...some of them may have been a good project pre-war, but by 1943-44, Japan could not afford to divert their manpower and materials away from proven production aircraft. Not if they hoped to save themselves...

Yes I suppose you're right, the 'Ohka' is just as silly as the Reichenberg, instead of copying the much better Me 263 they went for the troublesome 163B, and I don't believe that the Japanese didn't have the resources during that phase of the war to switch to jets, nor did their next-gen pistons justify the disruption of production, also I believe you forgot about the G10N

 

[GregP]

The Germans could have made the He 100 a world-class fighter. The Bf 109 certainly was, just as it was. The Fw 190 was, too.

Lest this be a German-bashing, the US and the UK also could have improved their fighters quite a bit and didn't. The fact that there was a war on probably had a lot to do with ALL the decisions not to improve things.

 

[GrauGeist]

...also I believe you forgot about the G10N

I didn't forget, I said "J7W, KI-201, MXY7, J8M, S1A, KI-93, etc..." meaning the list continues (and it's a long one)

 

[Shortround6]

The He 100 seems to be something of a sacred cow among Luftwaffe fans. It just missed being a world class fighter but miss it did and nothing short of a new plane was going to "fix" it. The He 100, like some other Heinkel aircraft, was biased a bit too much to the record breaking side of the balance and not quite enough to the service fighter side. Messerschmitt spent a lot of time and effort trying to turn their 209 record setter into a service fighter. Being even more extreme than the He 100 it went nowhere.

The Period between the early 1930s and the early 1940s was a period of very rapid advancement and sometimes a new airframe could show considerable improvement in performance over an older one using the same engine (like the P-51 and P-40). Some countries tended to use a shotgun approach and try a lot of different things. Unfortunately the planes were getting more complex and the problems more difficult as the decade went on and many of the newer designs required more engineering man hours than the older early to mid 30s designs did. Many nations didn't have the number of engineers to pursue all the different avenues in a timely fashion.

 

[GregP]

The P-75 started life as a hodge-podge of parts from other aircraft. It was laughable. The second itteration was better, but still fell short of goals.

There was nothing about the P-75 that made a lot of sense to me, but I have largely ignored it since it didn't make it into service. They DID make a gallant effort to get the redesign better, but I'm kind of glad they didn't make it into service because I am unuware of any successful "double V-12" engines.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The He 100 seems to be something of a sacred cow among Luftwaffe fans. It just missed being a world class fighter but miss it did and nothing short of a new plane was going to "fix" it. The He 100, like some other Heinkel aircraft, was biased a bit too much to the record breaking side of the balance and not quite enough to the service fighter side. Messerschmitt spent a lot of time and effort trying to turn their 209 record setter into a service fighter. Being even more extreme than the He 100 it went nowhere.

The Period between the early 1930s and the early 1940s was a period of very rapid advancement and sometimes a new airframe could show considerable improvement in performance over an older one using the same engine (like the P-51 and P-40). Some countries tended to use a shotgun approach and try a lot of different things. Unfortunately the planes were getting more complex and the problems more difficult as the decade went on and many of the newer designs required more engineering man hours than the older early to mid 30s designs did. Many nations didn't have the number of engineers to pursue all the different avenues in a timely fashion.

The entire point of the Me 209 V1 was supposed to be a record breaker as well as to increase the sales of the 109 by renaming the 209, Bf 109R. The He 100 on the other hand was designed from the outset as a service fighter. The surprising point of it all was that the He 100 technically kept the world record for 30 years and not the 209.

 

[Shortround6]

The He 100 was designed for dual purpose, record setting and a service fighter. Two sets of wings were designed from the start and even so, the "big" fighter wing was about as small as any service fighter used in WW II. It was almost exactly the same area as the I-16 and the I-16 wasn't trying to house fuel in the wing and use the wing surface as a radiator. They also made the tail more than a little too small to start and it needed serious enlargement after the first few flights. The fans what to take all the good (the high speed and range) and ignore the bad.

A fair amount of work wasput into the 209 to try to turn it into a fighter. an all new longer span wing was designed and then lengthened twice. different leading edges were tried. at least two different radiator set ups were tried (not counting the surface cooling set up). Larger tail surfaces were used than on the record setting plane/s. With each change to make the plane easier to fly (or to stop over heating) the performance dropped till finally it showed little difference forma service 109.